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Switch to Forum Live View Does anyone ever get out of the Bible Hell? - A Bible translation thread.
5 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2010 - 10:17AM #1
Newtonian
Posts: 12,196

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that everyone who is in the Bible Hell will be released and have a second chance at eternal life during the 1,000 year reign of Jesus Christ.  Many religions of Christendom believe the opposite, that all those in the Bible Hell will never be released but will be tormented there for all eternity.


That is putting the matter simply - however, it becomes more complex when it is realized that this stand depends on what Bible translation one is using and therefore what is actually being referred to Biblically. 


And, btw, this is the subject of my assigned talk in our Ministry School this Tuesday night - so any input will be appreciated, pro and con - preferably friendly.


The primary Biblical account in my assigned material is as follows - quoted within my assigned source material:


Rev. 20:13, 14, KJ: “The sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell* delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.” (So the dead will be delivered from hell. Notice also that hell is not the same as the lake of fire but will be cast into the lake of fire.) (*“Hell,” Dy, Kx; “the world of the dead,” TEV; “Hades,” NE, AS, RS, JB, NW.)


KJ = KJV = AV = Authorized King James Version - which, in the Scoffield Reference addition (the original, not the new one which removed some of Scoffield’s scholarly notes), is the Bible I originally studied when brought up Dutch Reformed to Lutheran, and was my mom’s favorite Bible translation when first starting to study with Jehovah’s Witnesses.


So, our stand as I opened with is based on this KJV rendering which simply states that “Hell delivered up the dead which were in them.”


This runs counter to what I was taught as a Lutheran - in that religion is was taught that those in Hell are alive, not dead -and that they are there eternally - never released - and, therefore, Lutherans are taught exactly opposite to what this verse states in KJV.


However, my assigned material then considers the translation aspect of this - the fact that Revelation 20:13,14 is referring to the Hebrew sheol/ Greek hades as Hell, whereas the Greek Gehenna is actually the lake of fire in the account.  Some translations confuse the matter by translating both hades and gehenna as Hell.  The simple truth of the verse is that hades is cast into gehenna - not that hades is gehenna. 


The simple truth, Biblically, is that all are released from hades while no one is released from gehenna.  Also, hades (sheol in Hebrew) is simply the common grave of mankind from which all are resurrected except those is the lake of fire which is gehenna - the latter are eternally dead with no hope of a resurrection - hence eternal condemnatory judgment and also eternal destruction.


Before continuing in depth concerning the various translations and verses involved in understanding this subject in depth, I would like to share my source material and invite critique or further research from anyone here - pro or con. 


"“Much confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell. The simple transliteration of these words by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible has not sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion and misconception.”—The Encyclopedia Americana (1942), Vol. XIV, p. 81.


Translators have allowed their personal beliefs to color their work instead of being consistent in their rendering of the original-language words. For example: (1) The King James Version rendered she’ohl´ as “hell,” “the grave,” and “the pit”; hai´des is therein rendered both “hell” and “grave”; ge´en·na is also translated “hell.” (2) Today’s English Version transliterates hai´des as “Hades” and also renders it as “hell” and “the world of the dead.” But besides rendering “hell” from hai´des it uses that same translation for ge´en·na. (3) The Jerusalem Bible transliterates hai´des six times, but in other passages it translates it as “hell” and as “the underworld.” It also translates ge´en·na as “hell,” as it does hai´des in two instances. Thus the exact meanings of the original-language words have been obscured.” - “Reasoning from the Scriptures,” pp. 170,171


To sum up - hades/sheol is the common grave of mankind at the first death and all will be resurrected from the grave.  Gehenna is the lake of fire, the second death, from which no one is resurrected but all there will be destroyed eternally symbolized by being consumed by eternal fire.


Proving that in depth is what I hope to do in this thread - as well as considering all other beliefs of all posters who post on this thread in the light of the Bible, which I/we believe is truth:


(John 17:3) . . .This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

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5 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2010 - 11:45AM #2
Ivandefendingtruth
Posts: 366

That's pretty well done, I don't know much more that can be added to that! 


 


But I find it incredible how Christendom still can't really differentiate between the "grave" and a literal hellfire. The context in Revelation 20:13,14 is too clear to miss it. In verse 13 it says, at least in the NWT, "Ha'des gave those dead in them." If Ha'des were a place of eternal hellfire why would it 'give those dead' up? And why would there be "dead" to begin with!? The context suggests and even demands that Ha'des mean "the grave" or "pit" for mankind in general especially when in relation to the "dead." 


 


Good work Wink

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5 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2010 - 1:12PM #3
Phronesis
Posts: 2,234

I agree; even their beloved KJV admits that hell is the grave. Anyone with a KJV Bible that has a reference column can see this at Psalm 55:15 where "hell" has a reference that says "or, the grave." (Some newer editions have "or, sheol." They cahnge it when they see that they are accidently teaching the truth.)


Again in Revelation 20:13 & 14 the marginal reference for "hell" reads: "Hades, or the grave."

"Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen ... ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, that I am God." - Isaiah 43:10, 12, ASV.
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2010 - 2:03PM #4
Sup
Posts: 2,309

Were you assigned this part from the Reasoning book this week, Newt?


If so, good luck on your delivery. Wink

Could Jesus microwave a burrito so hot that he himself could not eat it?
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2010 - 2:36PM #5
Theo
Posts: 4,691

Let’s see if we can make some head way on this one. I must confess, to begin with, that I have not majored on the doctrines of hell and damnation… being more interested in the doctrines of grace and salvation. However… I digress.


Rev 20:11-15


Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.



In the Greek death and hell both have the definite article… and they should be, at the very least, capitalized… as in the NKJV as quoted above. And this is because they are angels… fallen angels. This may be easier to discern in Rev 6:8

So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.



Thus as I understand it… the angels Death and Hades have power over the dead, apparently not over all the dead, just many of those who do not believe in our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, when the ungodly die, their souls are claimed by Death and Hades. Afterwards, at the White Throne judgment, or what some call “the general resurrection,” after the 1000 year Kingdom, the dead will be released from the power of Death and Hades, who will then be cast into the Lake of Fire – which is the second death. Then those who will be released from their power will be judged - each according to their works.  


 Again, as I understand this passage, the White Throne Judgment happens after the consummation of the Kingdom Age. For Christians, that means that we will have been raised from the dead and will have ruled and reigned with Jesus Christ for 1000 years. Thus we will not be part of this judgment. Therefore, those who are judged according to their works, as found written in the books and the Book of Life, are those who lived during the Kingdom Age. After this follows the judgment of Death and Hades and the rest of the dead under their power – and they were judged according to their works.


 The passage is reasonably clear, and it says nothing about the dead not existing until they are resurrected. Indeed, it is clear that the ungodly dead are in a prison run by the angels Death and Hades. Why would Death and Hades have power over the ungodly dead if they do not exist?


 So in summary… the dead do not cease to exist. The dead are being kept by the angels Death and Hades until the Last Judgment. These angels will be cast into the Lake of Fire at that time, and the dead who were in them will be judged according to their works – and anyone not found written in the Book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire with them.


 To me, this does not sound remotely like what I hear you saying. I do not see anywhere where anyone gets a second chance to believe in Christ during the Millennium. I do not see anywhere were the dead do not exist until they are raised from the dead. And I do not see anywhere were those who are cast into the Lake of Fire cease to exist.


~ Theophilus

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5 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2010 - 8:17PM #6
Newtonian
Posts: 12,196

Theo - Hi!  How are you today/tonight?


That is interesting - do you actually believe death is literally an angel - also that hades is an angel?  I know that is what you said, but this is the first time I have ever heard anyone believing that!   So, then, when a person dies does he become part of that angel?  Or, is that angel the angel of death that caused his death?  Please explain your belief more fully.  Thank you in advance.


Now, I did not say anything about existing or not existing - perhaps you were drawing on what you know I believe - however I did not state that.   I simply said that those in hades are dead which is what the Bible text says - while I noted many religions believe those in hades are alive.


So, what do you believe - that those in hades are dead or alive?


I am only responding partially in this post, btw.  You posted:


“I do not see anywhere were those who are cast into the Lake of Fire cease to exist.”


Well, there are many Scriptures I could share with you on that subject - but I will stay in the context for now.  What happens to death after it is thrown into the lake of fire?


And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. - Rev.20:14 KJV
(Revelation 20:14) . . .And death and Ha´des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. - NWT


The answer is good news - part of the good news of God’s Kingdom!  (Matthew 24:14)


Here is the good news:
(Revelation 21:4) 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”


“there shall be no more death” - KJV
Death shall be no more - Ph
death shall be no more - RS
There will be no more death - TEV, NIV, Je, NAB
“there shall be an end to death” - NEB
“death will no longer exist” - By (Byington)


Death is not tormented in the lake of fire - rather death no longer will exist - and that really is good news!


BTW - Revelation 21:1-5 immediately follows Revelation 20:13-15 - hence it is in the same context.


But what of Hell itself?  Do you agree Hell will also no longer exist once it is thrown into the lake of fire?

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5 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2010 - 8:31PM #7
Kemmer
Posts: 16,634

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that everyone who is in the Bible Hell will be released and have a second chance at eternal life during the 1,000 year reign of Jesus Christ...



I just can't believe how alike our made-in-America sects really are.  The Mormons also believe the dear departed will have another chance to become Mormon so that they can be eligible to rule over their very own planet with all the wives they can handle.  (This scenario seems a bit more attractive than some silly apple orchard on an eternal Earth amongst grass-eating lions and tigers.)  And bears.

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5 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2010 - 8:32PM #8
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583

I am aware of the god Hades in Greek mythology.   I had never heard of an 'angel Hades!'


 


...gives the floor back to Newtonian!

“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2010 - 8:34PM #9
Newtonian
Posts: 12,196

Jan 25, 2010 -- 2:03PM, Sup wrote:


Were you assigned this part from the Reasoning book this week, Newt?


If so, good luck on your delivery.




Hi Sup!  Yes!  Thank you! Smile


[Er -  I am thanking you for your thought - I/we do not believe in luck!]

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5 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2010 - 8:56PM #10
Newtonian
Posts: 12,196

A little more depth on translation.  First of all, Revelation 20:13,14 in Greek from Diaglott + interlinear: [Note: Diaglott translates hades as “invisible” in its interlinear]


Kai o thanatos kai o    hades     edokan tous nekrous      tous  en autois
And the death and the hades gave up the    dead ones those in them


Kai   ekrithesan     ekastos    kata              ta erga     auton
And were judged each one according to the works of themselves.


Kai    o thanatos kai    o  hades edlethesan eis   ten limnen tou     pyros:
And the death     and the hades were cast   into the  lake    of the  fire:


Outos o   thanatos o deuteros esti
This   the death     the second  is


Theo - in view of your viewpoint as to the significance of the definite article, I.e. “the” = ho, o, ta, tous, and all the other forms, do you therefore also believe that the death the second, I.e. the lake of the fire is also an angel?


Take note that in Rev. 21:4, death will be no more, death also has the definite article, to wit:


Kai o      thanatos ouk   estai       eti
And the  death       not shall be longer


To me the definite article makes clear that death will not exist any longer.

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