| 3 years ago :: Jan 25, 2010 - 10:17AM #1 | |
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Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that everyone who is in the Bible Hell will be released and have a second chance at eternal life during the 1,000 year reign of Jesus Christ. Many religions of Christendom believe the opposite, that all those in the Bible Hell will never be released but will be tormented there for all eternity. That is putting the matter simply - however, it becomes more complex when it is realized that this stand depends on what Bible translation one is using and therefore what is actually being referred to Biblically. And, btw, this is the subject of my assigned talk in our Ministry School this Tuesday night - so any input will be appreciated, pro and con - preferably friendly. The primary Biblical account in my assigned material is as follows - quoted within my assigned source material: Rev. 20:13, 14, KJ: “The sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell* delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.” (So the dead will be delivered from hell. Notice also that hell is not the same as the lake of fire but will be cast into the lake of fire.) (*“Hell,” Dy, Kx; “the world of the dead,” TEV; “Hades,” NE, AS, RS, JB, NW.) KJ = KJV = AV = Authorized King James Version - which, in the Scoffield Reference addition (the original, not the new one which removed some of Scoffield’s scholarly notes), is the Bible I originally studied when brought up Dutch Reformed to Lutheran, and was my mom’s favorite Bible translation when first starting to study with Jehovah’s Witnesses. So, our stand as I opened with is based on this KJV rendering which simply states that “Hell delivered up the dead which were in them.” This runs counter to what I was taught as a Lutheran - in that religion is was taught that those in Hell are alive, not dead -and that they are there eternally - never released - and, therefore, Lutherans are taught exactly opposite to what this verse states in KJV. However, my assigned material then considers the translation aspect of this - the fact that Revelation 20:13,14 is referring to the Hebrew sheol/ Greek hades as Hell, whereas the Greek Gehenna is actually the lake of fire in the account. Some translations confuse the matter by translating both hades and gehenna as Hell. The simple truth of the verse is that hades is cast into gehenna - not that hades is gehenna. The simple truth, Biblically, is that all are released from hades while no one is released from gehenna. Also, hades (sheol in Hebrew) is simply the common grave of mankind from which all are resurrected except those is the lake of fire which is gehenna - the latter are eternally dead with no hope of a resurrection - hence eternal condemnatory judgment and also eternal destruction. Before continuing in depth concerning the various translations and verses involved in understanding this subject in depth, I would like to share my source material and invite critique or further research from anyone here - pro or con. "“Much confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell. The simple transliteration of these words by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible has not sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion and misconception.”—The Encyclopedia Americana (1942), Vol. XIV, p. 81. Translators have allowed their personal beliefs to color their work instead of being consistent in their rendering of the original-language words. For example: (1) The King James Version rendered she’ohl´ as “hell,” “the grave,” and “the pit”; hai´des is therein rendered both “hell” and “grave”; ge´en·na is also translated “hell.” (2) Today’s English Version transliterates hai´des as “Hades” and also renders it as “hell” and “the world of the dead.” But besides rendering “hell” from hai´des it uses that same translation for ge´en·na. (3) The Jerusalem Bible transliterates hai´des six times, but in other passages it translates it as “hell” and as “the underworld.” It also translates ge´en·na as “hell,” as it does hai´des in two instances. Thus the exact meanings of the original-language words have been obscured.” - “Reasoning from the Scriptures,” pp. 170,171 To sum up - hades/sheol is the common grave of mankind at the first death and all will be resurrected from the grave. Gehenna is the lake of fire, the second death, from which no one is resurrected but all there will be destroyed eternally symbolized by being consumed by eternal fire. Proving that in depth is what I hope to do in this thread - as well as considering all other beliefs of all posters who post on this thread in the light of the Bible, which I/we believe is truth: (John 17:3) . . .This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. |
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| 3 years ago :: Jan 25, 2010 - 11:45AM #2 | |
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That's pretty well done, I don't know much more that can be added to that!
But I find it incredible how Christendom still can't really differentiate between the "grave" and a literal hellfire. The context in Revelation 20:13,14 is too clear to miss it. In verse 13 it says, at least in the NWT, "Ha'des gave those dead in them." If Ha'des were a place of eternal hellfire why would it 'give those dead' up? And why would there be "dead" to begin with!? The context suggests and even demands that Ha'des mean "the grave" or "pit" for mankind in general especially when in relation to the "dead."
Good work |
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| 3 years ago :: Jan 25, 2010 - 1:12PM #3 | |
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I agree; even their beloved KJV admits that hell is the grave. Anyone with a KJV Bible that has a reference column can see this at Psalm 55:15 where "hell" has a reference that says "or, the grave." (Some newer editions have "or, sheol." They cahnge it when they see that they are accidently teaching the truth.) Again in Revelation 20:13 & 14 the marginal reference for "hell" reads: "Hades, or the grave."
"Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen ... ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, that I am God." - Isaiah 43:10, 12, ASV.
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| 3 years ago :: Jan 25, 2010 - 2:03PM #4 | |
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Were you assigned this part from the Reasoning book this week, Newt? If so, good luck on your delivery.
Could Jesus microwave a burrito so hot that he himself could not eat it?
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| 3 years ago :: Jan 25, 2010 - 2:36PM #5 | |
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Let’s see if we can make some head way on this one. I must confess, to begin with, that I have not majored on the doctrines of hell and damnation… being more interested in the doctrines of grace and salvation. However… I digress. Rev 20:11-15
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| 3 years ago :: Jan 25, 2010 - 8:17PM #6 | |
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Theo - Hi! How are you today/tonight? That is interesting - do you actually believe death is literally an angel - also that hades is an angel? I know that is what you said, but this is the first time I have ever heard anyone believing that! So, then, when a person dies does he become part of that angel? Or, is that angel the angel of death that caused his death? Please explain your belief more fully. Thank you in advance. Now, I did not say anything about existing or not existing - perhaps you were drawing on what you know I believe - however I did not state that. I simply said that those in hades are dead which is what the Bible text says - while I noted many religions believe those in hades are alive. So, what do you believe - that those in hades are dead or alive? I am only responding partially in this post, btw. You posted: “I do not see anywhere were those who are cast into the Lake of Fire cease to exist.” Well, there are many Scriptures I could share with you on that subject - but I will stay in the context for now. What happens to death after it is thrown into the lake of fire? And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. - Rev.20:14 KJV The answer is good news - part of the good news of God’s Kingdom! (Matthew 24:14) Here is the good news: “there shall be no more death” - KJV Death is not tormented in the lake of fire - rather death no longer will exist - and that really is good news! BTW - Revelation 21:1-5 immediately follows Revelation 20:13-15 - hence it is in the same context. But what of Hell itself? Do you agree Hell will also no longer exist once it is thrown into the lake of fire? |
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| 3 years ago :: Jan 25, 2010 - 8:31PM #7 | |
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| 3 years ago :: Jan 25, 2010 - 8:32PM #8 | |
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I am aware of the god Hades in Greek mythology. I had never heard of an 'angel Hades!'
...gives the floor back to Newtonian!
“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on. Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic |
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| 3 years ago :: Jan 25, 2010 - 8:34PM #9 | |
Hi Sup! Yes! Thank you! [Er - I am thanking you for your thought - I/we do not believe in luck!] |
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| 3 years ago :: Jan 25, 2010 - 8:56PM #10 | |
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A little more depth on translation. First of all, Revelation 20:13,14 in Greek from Diaglott + interlinear: [Note: Diaglott translates hades as “invisible” in its interlinear] Kai o thanatos kai o hades edokan tous nekrous tous en autois Kai ekrithesan ekastos kata ta erga auton Kai o thanatos kai o hades edlethesan eis ten limnen tou pyros: Outos o thanatos o deuteros esti Theo - in view of your viewpoint as to the significance of the definite article, I.e. “the” = ho, o, ta, tous, and all the other forms, do you therefore also believe that the death the second, I.e. the lake of the fire is also an angel? Take note that in Rev. 21:4, death will be no more, death also has the definite article, to wit: Kai o thanatos ouk estai eti To me the definite article makes clear that death will not exist any longer. |
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