Ok I am back with this concept attacking it with a new viewpoint. Let me know if I am making any sense.
Let's ask ourselves what happens to us when we die, we leave the physical body behind do we not? Only our Atma is left to be reborn. The Atma as the Gita tells us cannot be burned by fire, nor moved by the wind, nor be engulfed by water! In fact, the Atma cannot be harmed in any way! So then I ask, where does the concept of hell come in? How can one torture something that cannot be harmed?
First of all let us be clear that in Hinduism there is no concept of Hell as it is understood in Christianity. So we should not use this term at all.
There is something call Naraka that is mentioned in the Hindu texts and bare in mind that Naraka is NOT hell.
A good English translation for the term Naraka is “a state of purgatory”. It denotes a state of mind that can be experienced on the physical plane or in the sub-astral plane after death of the physical body. It is accompanied by the tormented emotions of hatred, remorse, resentment, fear, jealousy and self condemnation.
The difference here is:
Hell:
1. a permanent place of torture and punishment. 2. An individual is sent to this place upon death. 3. Is an eternal condition.
Naraka:
1. a state of consciousness which represents an unhappy, mentally and emotionally congested, distressful area of consciousness. 2. This condition of one's own making. The dark states of consciousness into which one may fall as a result of serious misbehavior. 3. One does not remain permanently in this state and will eventually evolve.
Now back to your question:
“The Atma as the Gita tells us cannot be burned by fire, nor moved by the wind, nor be engulfed by water! In fact, the Atma cannot be harmed in any way! So then I ask, where does the concept of hell come in? How can one torture something that cannot be harmed?”
It is a valid question and neither there is a concept of Hell in Hinduism to begin with. Even in this physical world the atman having the physical body undergoes many unpleasant states of consciousness like suffering, pain, torture, fear etc. These kinds of unpleasant states also exist in the sub-astral region. All these are of our own making and as a result of karmic consequences and it is not a permanent state. This has nothing to do with the concept called "Hell".
yes it did and thank you very much for your post. The problem is that i keep running into folks who write about yama and his abode, story of how Arjuna visited Hell to find his brothers there etc. And there is this person who writes that all atheists will be killed in hell - the last one doesn't make any sense at all, aren't they already dead? And how can one kill the atma?
I do agree with your view of Naraka, as long as the suffering takes place here on earth or such similar place, because then one can do something about it. I believe that God does not inflict suffering needlessly nor does she inflict it without giving us a chance to fight our way out.
The whole point of Karma and Rebirth is not that suffering happens but that we should take responsibility for things that happens to us. I always give the example of Nigeria and Japan. Nigeria is rich is oil, is fertail, has nice weather, yet is dirt poor. Japan is cold, cannot grow its own food, and has no oil yet thru the hard work of its citizens has made itself into a rich, prosperous country.
This is what the lesson of karma is all about. Stop blaming others, take responsibility and work to make your future a better one.
And I do have a follow up question for you. I saw one of your posts where you derided the acceptance of most Indians that western thought was superior. I agree with you totally. I have been shouting that one should stop using the Billywood, sillywood name for the film industry - calling ourselves by that name betrays a second-class mentality that you talk about.
Also the fact that India is such a polyglot of hundreds of faiths, whereas western and muslim lands are barren except for one religion each. This is not an accident. We welcome a lady born in a foreign country and give her the highest power, we make a minority our prime minister - this can only happen in a Hindu country.f
You asked why we should use a calender dated after the birth and death of a person. I agree, why not make a calender of our own? Can you give me details as to how we should proceed? First what would be the calender year? Second, and i think we have these already, what would be the months? If we can get these details worked out then, maybe we can pitch it to some organisations that have the funds to churn out these calenders. shouldn't cost much.
While we are at it, we should select another day besides sunday as a holiday.
What you say is true. The root of this confusion is the wrong translation of Naraka as equal to Hell, and when we try to superimpose the Hell concept. This is true to almost all Hindu terms that are translated into English such as Karma, Atma, Dharma, Sadhana, Moksha, Brahman etc.
For example Atma is NOT soul as it is understood in Christianity. The Christians say “I have a Soul” while the Hindus say “I am the Atman”. Thus the meaning here is just the opposite!, yet we often substitute these terms interchangeably without making the distinctions. If we look closely, there is no concept of Atma in Christianity or Islam.
In a similar way Karma is not Sin, Moksha is not Salvation and Brahman is not God as it is defined in Christianity. So we have to be careful when using these terms.
The Atman is said to be embodied by the Saguna, Manasa, Karana (causal), Sukshma (astral) and Stula (physical) sharirs. Thus apart from getting experience in the physical existence in this physical body, the Atman also undergoes different levels of experiences apart from physical realm. Thus most of Hindu texts deal with this subject and we need to take note of this.
When we are talking about the abode of Yama, we are talking about a state of existence at the level of Karana (causal). When it is said that Arjuna visited Naraka, it means Arjuna in his Sukshma sharir, visited this sub-astral realm. It does not mean visiting in physical body! Similarly when Arjuna is shown the Vishvarupa by Shri Krishna, the atmic vision was awaken in him for him to see it. He did not see it thru the physical eye.
The reality of Atman exists beyond all these level of existence. Well this is just a further elaboration to have a better picture.
Regarding the follow-up question, here are some points to take note.
In contemporary India, we have many types of calendars that vary from one state to another such as Vikrama and Shalivahana calendars. This is because different regions in India had different rulers. But these are all recent developments. The present Vedic calendar starts (to be accurate it is not start but elapsed) from the beginning of the Kaliyuga era. Thus we are now in the year 5107 post Kaliyuga and this calendar is very accurate if not the science of jotishya would not be feasible.This Vedic calendar system is still being used till today by the Hindus for determining important dates and time. To my knowledge, till today the Tamils are still using this calendar system.
The western calendar is of a much recent origin and initially was influenced by the Vedic system yet it was incomplete therefore the early Georgian calendar had only 10 months. Thus, December was 10th month (deka is 10 in Greek which came from dasa for 10 in Sanskrit), November was 9th (nava is 9 in sanskrit), September was 7th month (sapta is 7 in Sanskrit). When 2 additional months was added, December, November and September became 12th, 11th and 9th respectively.
Why do you think 1 min = 60 sec? Why 1 hr = 60 mins? Why 1 week = 7 days? Why 1 day = 24 hrs? why 1 year = 12 months = 365 days?
If you do some research you will find out that all these came from the Vedic system also. It is self-evident because only the Vedic system explains how these numbers are derived and it is in its complete form and being the oldest. A detailed study will reveal that the Vedic system is more complex and advanced compared to the current western system.
In the Vedic system, the smaller to larger time cycles do not stop at his level, but it continues. Beyond this we have the 60 year cycle called 60 Samvatsaras and each year has specific name given. Once the 60 names are finished, the next year starts with the first name again. This goes on in a cyclic manner. Then beyond them we have the Yuga cycle, followed by the Catur-yuga, followed by Manvantara, Kalpa etc. up to Mahakalpa which is the life-span of Brahma itself who is the creator of the realm of Karana, Sukshma and Stula (which includes this physical world). It do not stop there, it goes on measuring the number of Brahma and the resent one.
Thus the full reading of the Vedic calendar goes like this…
As of now, 50 years of Brahma have elapsed and we are in the first Day of the 51st year. This Brahma's day, Kalpa, is named as ShvetaVaraha Kalpa. Within this Day, six Manvantaras have already elapsed and we are in the 7th Manhavatara, named as - Vaivasvatha Manvantara. Within the Vaivasvatha Manavantara, 27 Mahayugas (4 Yugas together is a Mahayuga), and the Krita, Treta and Dwapara Yugas of the 28th Mahayuga have elapsed. We are in the Kaliyuga of the 28th Mahayuga. This Kaliyuga began in the year 3102 BC in the proleptic Julian Calendar. Since 50 years of Brahma have already elapsed, we are in the second Parardha, also called as Dvithiya Parardha.
:) Hinduism, the fundamental tenet is this world that we are seeing and thinking as real is actually only a Dream [Please refer: Mandukya upanishad karikas / Yoga Vasishtam / Tripura Rahasyam]. So death is seen as just moving from one dream to another dream. Hell is one dream, heaven is another dream. Yama is there, physically ... just as physically the entities in the dream exist. physically is just as physically as in a dream :D
I like your explanation of Naraka, I had not heard about it, but I have had similar thoughts that your own mind start to analyze and regret bad things. We do that too if something bad happens with our "what if I had done this, what if? What if? Why didn't I, If I had only..."
I recently saw the movie "A boy in Striped pyjamas" about world war 2.
They show a scene where they gas the jews to death in the "showers". What I didn't know was that there was a man standing on the roof with a gas mask on as he poured the gas down into the "showers". I don't know how I thought they had done it, somebody had to do it obviously, but to see this man singelhandedely murdering all these people really stays with me.
I imagine two things, either the men who did this, have no connection to their true Self at all and will instantly be reborn without any knowledge of anything and then they have to physically live life after life to work out this karma.
Or 2,
That these men do have a connection to their true Self and both during their life and before they get a new body they are horribly tormented with the..."why did I? Why didn't I, how could I have" questions. Imagine living a long life with the memory of doing something like that? It's "hell"
Ok I am back with this concept attacking it with a new viewpoint. Let me know if I am making any sense.
Let's ask ourselves what happens to us when we die, we leave the physical body behind do we not? Only our Atma is left to be reborn. The Atma as the Gita tells us cannot be burned by fire, nor moved by the wind, nor be engulfed by water! In fact, the Atma cannot be harmed in any way! So then I ask, where does the concept of hell come in? How can one torture something that cannot be harmed?
HinduGuy,
You have made a simple and elementary mistake here. Atman is never reborn according to the Gita:
He (this Self or Atman) has neither birth nor death. Nor does he cease to be, having been in existence before; unborn, eternal, permanent and primeval, he is never killed when the body is killed. (Gita 2.20)
O Arjuna! know this self to be eternal, undecaying, birthless and indestructible. A person who knows him to be so - how and whom can he kill, how and whom can he cause to be killed? (Gita 2.21)
So what is reborn? The sukshma sarira or subtle body is reborn appropriate to its Karma.
[[The Atman is said to be embodied by the Saguna, Manasa, Karana (causal), Sukshma (astral) and Stula (physical) sharirs. Thus apart from getting experience in the physical existence in this physical body, the Atman also undergoes different levels of experiences apart from physical realm. Thus most of Hindu texts deal with this subject and we need to take note of this.]]
You have made a similar mistake as HinduGuy. The Atman does NOT undergo any experience. Just read the Gita quotes in my previous post. The Atman has neither birth nor death. Nor does he cease to be, having been in existence before; unborn, eternal, permanent and primeval. It is the subtle body that undergoes the experience.
