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9 years ago  ::  Oct 03, 2009 - 12:08PM #71
EyesoftheWorld
Posts: 1,708

Hey! I've been fantasizing about how, some long lawless time ago, people killed and exploited shamelessly, acquiring land and property... then Law came down and protected the estates of the very worst persons who had no reservations about victimizing others for their own gain.


Of course, that is how some of the most powerful families in history came about.


This isn't to say I wish there were no laws, but I find it fascinating to think of how it was like ultra-violent "musical chairs", so to speak - chaos until the music (time without laws) stopped and those in the seats (in possession of land/wealth), no matter how they acquired it, became legitimized and any attempt to take from them what they themselves took in the manner they themselves obtained it would be criminal; a new notion at the time!

What Fatal Flowers of Darkness Bloom from Seeds of Light!
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9 years ago  ::  Oct 03, 2009 - 3:17PM #72
Karma_yeshe_dorje
Posts: 14,245
G'day EyesoftheWorld:

"some long lawless time ago, people killed and exploited shamelessly, acquiring land and property"
Well do I know the history!
«John de Courcy marched north from Dublin in 1177 with a small contingent of knights and footmen and conquered eastern Ulster from the River Bann to the Irish Sea. After conquering eastern Ulster he established his caput at Carrickfergus, where he built an impressive stone castle. He married Affreca Godfredsdottir, daughter of Godfred II "the Black" Olafsson, King of Mann and Findguala MacLochlainn, in c. 1180. A castle at Dundrum was established in the 1180s»
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_de_Courcy#Ear...

"protected the estates of the very worst persons"
I recall reading that the modern English population was descended from mediaeval aristocracy. For no-one else then had the wherewithal to breed!

"had no reservations about victimizing others for their own gain"
«The process of enclosure has sometimes been accompanied by force, resistance, and bloodshed and remains among the most controversial areas of agricultural and economic history in England. Marxist and neo-Marxist historians argue that rich landowners used their control of state processes to appropriate public land for their private benefit. This created a landless working class that provided the labour required in the new industries developing in the north of England. For example: "In agriculture the years between 1760 and 1820 are the years of wholesale enclosure in which, in village after village, common rights are lost". "Enclosure (when all the sophistications are allowed for) was a plain enough case of class robbery".»
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosure

"those in the seats (in possession of land/wealth), no matter how they acquired it, became legitimized"
«Post-Soviet business oligarchs include relatives or close associates of government officials, even government officials themselves, as well as criminal bosses who achieved vast wealth by acquiring state assets very cheaply (or for free) during the privatization process controlled by the Yeltsin government. Specific accusations of corruption are often leveled at Anatoly Chubais and Yegor Gaidar, two of the 'Young Reformers' chiefly responsible for Russian privatization in the early 1990s.»
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_oligarch#...

"criminal; a new notion"
«it is in fact the state and its laws which have made crime into an institution»
flag.blackened.net/forums/viewtopic.php?...
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9 years ago  ::  Oct 05, 2009 - 11:29AM #73
EyesoftheWorld
Posts: 1,708

Hey, thanks for that post and those links! I don't understand how John de Courcy is responsible for the advent of law - I'll have to check it out.

What Fatal Flowers of Darkness Bloom from Seeds of Light!
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9 years ago  ::  Oct 05, 2009 - 5:12PM #74
Karma_yeshe_dorje
Posts: 14,245
G'day EyesoftheWorld:

"how John de Courcy is responsible for the advent of law"
«The people of modern Ulster can look back to him as a counterpart of William the Conqueror in England, the man who brought Ulster, albeit by force, into the mainstream of European law, religion and culture.»
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_de_Courcy#Lit...
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