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8 years ago  ::  Jan 15, 2010 - 11:49AM #11
Posts: 1,708

Has anyone read "Gargantua and Pantagruel" by Francois Rabelais (aka Alcofribas Nasier)? The Abby of Theleme, with it's motto of "Do What Thou Wilt" is established in that work from the 16th Century.


What Fatal Flowers of Darkness Bloom from Seeds of Light!
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8 years ago  ::  Jan 17, 2010 - 1:05PM #12
Posts: 43

If anyone wants to learn more of Thelema, there is a podcast out there, now rather defunct, I think, but still worth a listen in the archives, callled Thelema Coast to Coast.

“Some of the most wonderful people are the ones who don't fit into boxes.” — Tori Amos
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3 years ago  ::  Aug 06, 2015 - 8:15PM #13
Posts: 1


How is Thelema NOT Pagan? What is it then? You "Thelemites are not Pagan" crowd really annoy me. So much, that i had to make an account just to reply to your ignorant comments. The core definition of Pagan is anyone who does not follow Christianity, Judiasm, or Islam. Aleister Crowley, the prophet of Thelema, was a magician, occultist, and anti-Christian. Now, why would he create a religion so similar to the ones he despised? He wouldn't. Thelemites consider themselves Pagan, as they practice magick, divination, astrology, numerology, tarot cards, and the like. They worship ancient Egyptian Gods. They keep magickal diaries. Hello? Of course they're Pagan.

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3 years ago  ::  Aug 11, 2015 - 10:51AM #14
Posts: 1,708

Good Morning Witchywoman. My attention was brought to this activity and after reading your comment/question I'd like to make this point for you and through you for the edification of any and all, which isn't quite an answer.

Here's a crucial sentence from your post: "The core definition of Pagan is anyone who does not follow Christianity, Judiasm, or Islam."

The label "Pagan" is not one of self-identification - meaning I don't believe that is how Thelemists think of themselves or each other. It is a disparaging, grossly broad grouping of, as you said "anyone who does not follow... etc."

You may find such ignorant aspersions to be authoritative, but in the larger scope they are beneath contempt.

By what authority exactly does any institution have to "give names" (and please cite the authority - by Name haha) to things 1) it does not understand and 2) that do not acknowledge or recognize that putative authority and even 3) which have far more real authority in praxis.

By the way, I hope you appreciate the Pagan consumption of the body & blood of the most famous human sacrifice in history, and the Pagan awe of the self-contained magical vessel known as an egg during Spring, when life bursts out anew, and also (but not limited to) the Pagan worship of evergreen trees keeping their verdant hue amidst the white wastelands of winter.

Christianity and it's two brothers or cousins (though I think Islam may be less Pagan than the older two) are steeped in very Pagan beliefs!

How about Passover? Put some lamb's blood over the door so the Angel of Death will pass over the house and not take the first-born son, which it will do to those houses whose doors do not have the blood painted over them! If effect, tricking the Angel of Death!!! How holy and sanctimonious is that?

What about Solomon, who in all his glory was yet not arrayed like a lily, that forced demons (akak djinn) to slave at building the Temple or suffer being imprisoned in a bottle sealed with lead bearing that great wizard's ring's seal?

And let's not forget the Egyptian Magician Moses, who's inability to speak Hebrew is minimized into a "speech impediment", tossing a wooden staff on the ground for it to become a snake! To witness that would make one's hair stand on end I venture.

In summary, I suspect you have an artificial backbone to make up for an instinctive weakness, and your marching orders from some Iron Age collection of lunatic rantings, masterly twisted into the ultimate slap in the face of Jesus that is the Christian Church.

Jesus was not a Pagan, but Christianity is Pagan. Jesus' actual birthday was not on the Winter Solstice, but "making it so" helped engulf the worship of Mithras, another solar diety who happened to be a mediator between the unknowable God and humanity, whose worship (and sacramental substance was Bull blood) was conducted in caverns, some of which are literally located beneath such Roman holy sites as the Basilicas of San Clemente and St. Paul.

Also, isn't it funny that the Beast (Rome) of Revelation became the home of the most organized religion in history, which took its name from a great man who railed against organized religion?

I'm digressing but not losing control.

If you want an echo chamber, you are in the wrong thread. If you care or dare to open your mind, drop all convictions - they de facto make you their prisoner. Consider no point of view as having any ascendancy over another and entertain those you've been conditioned to see as "pagan". Try to understand why cannibalism, estrogen/yeast/East/Astarte worship and Yule traditions were picked up like so many balls by the out of control locomotive of Christianity and get some perspective as you watch it run like the Devil with them.

What Fatal Flowers of Darkness Bloom from Seeds of Light!
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3 years ago  ::  Aug 22, 2015 - 3:25PM #15
Posts: 9,223

Blessed be ,I agree with you Eyesoftheworld on the idea that Christianity is Pagan. However Christians dont care or accept that of themselves dont practice Paganism, and many consider Paganism to be of the devil and the church doesnt teach that Christianity is Pagan.

So the fact that its steeped in Paganism doesnt seem to mean much considerng the practices and beliefs of the Christian church,Christians arent going to accept that so it doesnt mean anything.

On the other hand I am a Universalist Pagan so the idea that Christians can be Pagan as well is ok with me, I have practiced both Christianity and Paganism through my UU church. But now Im not.

But let me ask you a question, what is Thelema?

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