Salvation is for communities, not individuals, says Presiding Bishop Thursday, 9th July 2009. 4:31pm
By: George Conger.
US Presiding Bishop Katherine Jefferts Schori has denounced as a “heresy” the proposition that individual believers can find salvation through Jesus Christ.
The grace of God is a gift to the community of believers, not for the individual believer, Bishop Jefferts Schori said in her opening statement to the 76th US General Convention, meeting in Anaheim, California from July 7-17. The presiding bishop set the tone and the agenda for the 10-day meeting of the US church’s triennial synod, loosening a broadside against conservative evangelicals, while calling the church to engage in social action.
Is the PB indicating that salvation is "correct relationship" i.e. relational and that this relationship extends beyond the singular dimension of individual-to-God? I would agree.
I've stated before my belief that the correct relationship is multidimensional. It exists between the individual and God, neighbor, creation and one's self. The Torah and Talmud address issues that are largely relational. Jesus'Great Commandment is that we love God and neighbor as ourselves. That is relational too.
The idea I got from the article is that we live as individuals within community, and this is precisely Viktor Frankel's point too. We are neither isolates nor units-in-mass, but function inter-dependently as individuals within human community. Salvation, i.e. "correct relationship" on the aforestated multi-dimensional basis, is lived-out within human community. Jesus' Great Commission is the call to "make disciples of all people", and Jesus' discipleship was and is a commiunity of believers. Jesus' call to salvation is not one of the individual in isolation. Paul's statements re: salvation invite the individual to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior --- and to enter the Pauline community of churches. Again, this is the individual-within-community.
IMVHO, The PB is reiterating good, traditional theology in a new --- and to some journalists --- jolting way. The church could use a good jolt. Nicht wahr?
Walk Your Own DharmaPath--- Do No Harm.
The Socratic Standard: Follow the evidence;____ if it doesn't make sense, it's bull$#!+.
"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." (Supposedly)Thomas Jefferson
"He who is not angry when there is just cause for anger is immoral." St. Thomas Aquinas
One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. Plato
1.My concern is for the Protestant element of your church namely the Low Church and would they be allowed to operate as they always have,or has KJS excommunicated the Low Church?
2.With the inclusion of women and gays in the priesthood and episcopate alienating Rome, this new developement portends to alienate TEC from Protestants of all traditions. Is TEC willing to parley with ANYONE??
3.Is this recent statement KJS' personal opinion or is it "Ex Cathedra"?
I am just stating the diplomatic implications of this development on this post.
For those who have faith, no explanation is neccessary. For those who have no faith, no explanation is possible.
St. Thomas Aquinas
If one turns his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9
IMO, George Conger is not a reliable source of information. He is an activist in the schismatic movement, and has spent a considerable amount of time smearing our PB and our church for his own purposes.
I strongly suggest that we be very, very careful about where we get our data and news.
In the current environment in our church, there are a number of people who will stoop at nothing to denigrate our church, and smear it's leaders, up to and including lying.
1.My concern is for the Protestant element of your church namely the Low Church and would they be allowed to operate as they always have,or has KJS excommunicated the Low Church?
Roo: I have no idea where this question comes from. What do you mean by Low Church, and where have you gotten the notion that somehow Low Church has been excommunicated?
2.With the inclusion of women and gays in the priesthood and episcopate alienating Rome, this new developement portends to alienate TEC from Protestants of all traditions. Is TEC willing to parley with ANYONE??
Roo: TEC and TAC "alienated" Rome in 1535. Why is Rome's respect so important anyway? It's an unrepentent pedophile ring! And various protestant denominations started ordaining women as far back as the late 19th century. I'm not aware of a mainline church that does not ordain women today. When will the rest of the protestant world catch up to TEC and the rest of the mainline church, which makes up about 40% of protestantism???
3.Is this recent statement KJS' personal opinion or is it "Ex Cathedra"?
Roo: There is no such thing as an "Ex Cathedra" statement in TEC. As I mentioned below, you may want to click on the link I provided to read it for yourself.
I am just stating the diplomatic implications of this development on this post.
Roo: are you? I hope so. A couple of your comments above "could" be interpreted as sarcastic and not very helpful. =:o
If you have problems with gayness, or the ordination of women, or anything else, let's discuss it them. Okay? :)
I'd only add a rejoinder to Roo's question "is TEC willing to parlay with ANYONE?". Good grief, TEC is currently into ecumenical discussions with virtually EVERYONE, and has been so involved for years. That question came out of the far-back weeds.
Walk Your Own DharmaPath--- Do No Harm.
The Socratic Standard: Follow the evidence;____ if it doesn't make sense, it's bull$#!+.
That means dialogue with everyone, anyone, all sorts & conditions of religions.
There are so many specific, and otoh "on-going", dialogues that I won't paralyze my poor digits attempting to type them all out: There are dialogues with Rome, Eastern Orthodoxy, Judaism, Islaam, and Buddhism. I'm not sure about Hinduism, but I'll bet my jockey shorts that one is underway somewhere.
Some are pissed-off that we don't dialogue enough; some are pissed-off that we dialogue so much that we're "ecumaniacs". Maybe, someday, little Baby bear will post "my porridge is juuuuuust right".
Walk Your Own DharmaPath--- Do No Harm.
The Socratic Standard: Follow the evidence;____ if it doesn't make sense, it's bull$#!+.
1.I am just referring to present documentation on Rome's "regrets" over the elevation of women to the episcopate without unneccessary commentary. Yes, Rome does have a problem with molestation and cover up.
2. I am expressing concern AS A PROTESTANT that the statements made by KJS, would hurt relationships between TEC and other Protestant bodies.
3.When I asked if these statements were Ex Cathedra I was asking if ithese remarks reflected the official position of TEC or were they KJS' personal opinion. KJS,after all, is the Presiding Bishop. What she says does have some clout.
4.Other Protestant Denominations will hear of this and there will be responses to these remarks. a whole lot of clarification will need to be made.
For those who have faith, no explanation is neccessary. For those who have no faith, no explanation is possible.
St. Thomas Aquinas
If one turns his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9
1.I am just referring to present documentation on Rome's "regrets" over the elevation of women to the episcopate without unneccessary commentary. Yes, Rome does have a problem with molestation and cover up.
Rome's "regrets" and two bucks will get you on the NYC subway.
Rome's fundamental "regret" is that the Anglican Communion, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Protestantism hasn't submitted to the Papal heel.
2. I am expressing concern AS A PROTESTANT that the statements made by KJS, would hurt relationships between TEC and other Protestant bodies.
PBKJS's remarks are within the bounds of good theology and biblical standards, as detailed in another post. It will hurt our virtually non-existant relations with literalist-fundamentalists and snakehandlers. The other mainline denoms are watching TEC to see how we weather the storm.
3.When I asked if these statements were Ex Cathedra
TEC doesn't recognize "ex cathedra", and I'll bet you know that.
I was asking if ithese remarks reflected the official position of TEC
The Official Position of TEC is stated in the Apostles' and Nicene Creeds and in the codex of canon law.
or were they KJS' personal opinion. KJS,after all, is the Presiding Bishop. What she says does have some clout.
She is articulating a "Mind of the House" statement. This is neither Ex Cathedra nor a purely personal opinion. Why engage in binary thinking?
4.Other Protestant Denominations will hear of this and there will be responses to these remarks.
Yes, of course. So what? There's always "remarks". I'm not afraid of remarks or things that go "bump in the night". Are you?
a whole lot of clarification will need to be made.
Only for those who move their lips when they read.
Walk Your Own DharmaPath--- Do No Harm.
The Socratic Standard: Follow the evidence;____ if it doesn't make sense, it's bull$#!+.
