As according to the social moores of our society, Neopaganism is becoming more rebellious as it continues its ongoing practice. As a Reuman, I feel it is necessary to become one with the world and be as we are. Unfortunately, that is not the case with Paganism. I have found the religion itself to be obstentaneously rebellious and my only prayer is for the Pagans to come to their senses and realize that the religion being practiced is mostly a merger of the ancient world belief systems. Some religious experts claim that Neopaganism is not rebellious, as according to their scriptures. In reality, they know it is rebellious but do not wish for the Pagans to cast a hex on them as according to their religious beliefs. My dear Pagans, we have to face reality. The aspects of your faith does not exist previously and beforehand, knowing that what you mostly practice is a form of folklore. Do not be discoraged by what I have said but instead use it to place Neopaganism in a more positive light. When I say that you are being rebellious and that Paganism is a backlash against society, I am not trying to be mean. I am trying to keep you from being considered a hoodlum. If you say, "Uh-uh! You are being mean to us," let me point out something from my own faith, which is Reuman:
"Having a religious faith is a huge responsiblity. It involves community outreach, public service and a great load of works that are immensive. Since religious beliefs are the bases of religious works, there must be a great load of responsibility involved in such things. To prove it, I must use Holy Matrimony in a posititon where the world can follow suit." This was quoted by my wife Serena Paris, into whom inspired the song "Waiting For A Girl Like You," into which was ranked the greatest of all love songs, mostly because it happens to be the hymnal of Reuman. Of course, Paganism does have a hymnal, which is "Self-Control," but even so the religion is still considered a backlash against society mostly because it rejects numerous things in life in place of its own view. The only way to make that statement wrong is if the Pagan is willing to do three things:
Promote ones religious beliefs without expecting converts. Many Wiccans would defintely be hesitant on this one, but the case is to promote the belief without expecting anyone to do so. This includes bake sales, garage sales and other personal business ventures.
Draw the line between ancient and modern. The Wiccans think they are witches, when in reality they are not. The Wiccans have to explain how they practice their religious beliefs in ways that are not of witchcraft and differentiate a ritual of both ends. Wiccan rituals are formal, and that must also be upheld.
Be confidential when demonstrating your beliefs. This is important, especially for the children. Produce some videos about the faith. Write children's books about the religion. Do what is best for the children of the world to know about it.
The more you do these things, the more Paganism would shift from being "rebellious" to being "benevolent." Act like adults, not teenagers, and take responsibility for what is said.
Upon this, we also need to add more "Faiths & Beliefs" forums for Yaroba, Rastafari, Voudou, Confucianism and my religion, Reuman. I would have to twist a few arms to make the New Age of Reuman one of the independent "Faiths & Beliefs" forums. This will be the last time I will experiment with a religious community. For the Pagan Community, I say "farewell."
Mew Xacata (Raven)
P.S. I am pretty sure that your religion will grow up someday.
Hello guy's, guess who I used ta be.. never guess, Christ 07, yes, that's right, the annoying christian guy. Now I'm pagan!!!! I'll tell ya the details later. HEY raven, it's not our fault if what we stand for spells out rebellion to the closed minded. Just my two cents.
This isn't a pagan debate board either. I am not sure why that poster continues to come here and post his/her rubbish, especially since s/he has such a negative view of paganism... is this reportable?
Glad to see you again. If you start sorting through the rhetoric in that opening post, one is left with the impression of a drive-by poster or someone whose personal biases are totally filtering what he or she knows about this topic or perhaps someone whose knowledge of Paganism has been derived from sources that we would consider...inadequate.
I don't think anyone here is taking this poster seriously. I even considered as I often do posting a clarification on the points raised in this post for the sake of the naive and uninformed reading it. On second reading, I realized that anyone who had done any kind of homework would pick up the inaccuracies quickly enough if the responses didn't twig them to scepticism. Anyone else can ask if they want clarification.
C.H.
No one cares how much you know until they know how much you care.
I've never really considered myself a rebellious type of person. My life's journey it seems has always unwaveringly been the rule person type. I don't understand how someone could possibly get rebellious from how I've lived. But this is a Christian accusation for someone who does not adhere to their rules.
Has anyone considered that the rebellious ones were perhaps Christians? They have multiple gods that they try to convince is in reality one god in three distinct personages. They use what was previously old religion holy days and turned them in to sanitized Christian holy days and in many instances taken old religion gods and goddesses, and rather than just casting them off, demoted them to the status of saints or demons. If anyone has rebelled and changed the scope of things, in my mind it's the Christians who are doing the rebelling, not what is commonly referred to as Pagan. The Pagan it seems is doing nothing more than trying to go back to the root of the Judaic beliefs. Back to the beginning and recreate what has been lost to us all or in part by Christianity. I can't think of any other religion who has destroyed all evidence of past religions, burned or banned books that does not fall in line to the religious views, or restricted independent though as the Christian religion is guilty of.
And the stone throwing by Christians who accuse anyone who dares believe something other than their particular brand of Christianity.... Did I hear someone say our beliefs were childish? Pot meet kettle.
It isn't about waiting for the storms to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain.
Discussing Christianity isn't on topic, being a Paganism board. However you raised some important points about how a faith can be 'demonized' and why, which I would like to address.
First, I would like to point out that Christians like any faith accused of being rebellious means there has to be something to rebel against. What are you measuring them against? How exactly did they change the scope and what was that scope? You seem to hint that this is 'the root of the Judaic beliefs' although one might also read your phrasing to suggest that you are self-defining 'The Pagan' the same way. Or perhaps as your next sentence shows, you are doing what so many do today and re-labelling anything ancient religious or holy as being 'pagan' and then claiming that 'it' was stolen by the Christians. A very narrow Western centric and restrictive historic perspective that dismisses the breadth, diversity and complexity of human history, quite frankly. Now non-Christian was the adapted meaning of paganism from the Latin term paganus meaning civilian and as the definitions changed over time, non-Abrahamic became one of the classic definitions. Yet within the modern Paganism Movement, most self-definitions do not reference Hebrew or ancient Judaic beliefs, I am curious if this interpretation is accurate and if so, what it is based on?
IMO It is also disrespectful (however one might feel about a faith or whatever baggage one is carrying) to claim that a monotheistic faith is polytheistic based on one's outside perspective. Now if Christians as a whole and as a faith decide that the Trinity is three gods, not representative of their God, that is another matter. For someone else to decide for them is akin to well...Christians deciding that as a whole Pagans worship Satan. Or that Pagans who are polytheistic are really monotheistic and worshipping the Christian God, they just don't know it...yet. As a polytheistic Pagan, I know how I regard such outside perspectives being projected onto the pantheon of my faith. Why would I not extend the same courtesy and respect to Christians who believe in the Trinity as stated within their theology?
If one took into account all the religions and faiths that have taken religious or holy days, customs, deities and traditions of earlier or contemporary faiths and adapted them, the list would go on and on. And while Paganism has yet to be defined or practised as a singular faith, the evolution of the Movement we call Paganism today was and is founded on exactly that same principle. Including re-labelling things as Pagan that had perfectly fine names already. Pot...kettle indeed.
As for religions throughout history who have adapted what they needed and then destroyed evidence of past religions,...show me a religion that hasn't? Now the list is far shorter where burning or banning books is concerned but only because the written record is a fairly recent aspect of human history. The only list that doesn't exist at all IMO is one where a religion has destroyed ALL evidence of past religions. Think about it. That would entail one specific religion from a specific time and place in history (and if a faith survives, it constantly changes as history demonstrates) trying to destroy every single piece of archaeological, historical and contemporary evidence of every single religion throughout the world. So they would have to visit every continent, go over every square inch of the globe as well as under the earth, at the bottom of the oceans, know every language to speak to everyone living (at that time) and destroy it all. Since there is surviving evidence for most of the ancient faiths of the world and more turning up every day - including evidence that we have no way to interpret- this obviously hasn't happened. May I suggest that your sweeping statement is perhaps indicative of your experience, knowledge and beliefs about Christianity rather than a historically accurate observation?
As for demonizing aspects of other faiths, Christianity faces the same challenge as any exclusive faith with omnipresent claims for a singular deity. Where do you put all the crap, the bad stuff, everything that contradicts claims of all goodness? There has to be those who can be perceived to take responsibility for all that which is why even faiths that are not exclusive or monotheistic have their 'bad guys'. Not the first faith to do that nor the last.
So if these claims of demonizing Christianity are to hold up, then evidence will need to be presented (unbiased evidence) to support such conclusions. Same with Paganism and with the original poster's claims. Until these are supported by unbiased evidence, they are at best misconceptions and more likely filters based on experiences or lack thereof.
Now again, not wanting to turn this thread into a discussion about Christianity but pot and kettle again...what is used against Paganism would seem to be being used back against Christianity here.
C.H.
No one cares how much you know until they know how much you care.
The Pagan it seems is doing nothing more than trying to go back to the root of the Judaic beliefs. Back to the beginning and recreate what has been lost to us all or in part by Christianity.
New age and neopaganism must *always* be defined releative to Christianity, as you just did, because it is indeed a rebellion against Christianity. New agers spend 80% of their online time trying to suppress any mention of one particular religion....Christianity. There is good reason for this but it is an impossible battle. Saying "don't mention Christianity" in online discussions about neopaganism is like the old joke of telling someone "whatever you do try not to think of an elephant". Of course it spings intantly to mind.
As far as Judaism is concerned it is simple, straightforward, ancient and well known. Not to mention monotheistic. And you have no evidence to the contrary. When you say "recreate" you really mean "create" with all your bias. There is no reason to recreate something that exists already. Right now trying to find Judaic roots for new age claims is trendy. But I feel it will pass. Madonna will move on to the next fad eventually and so will the people influenced by her ilk.
baggage one is carrying) to claim that a monotheistic faith is polytheistic based on one's outside perspective. Now if Christians as a whole and as a faith decide that the Trinity is three gods, not representative of their God, that is another matter. For someone else to decide for them is akin to well...Christians deciding that as a whole Pagans worship Satan. Or that Pagans who are polytheistic are really monotheistic and worshipping the Christian God, they just don't know it...yet. As a polytheistic Pagan, I know how I regard such outside perspectives being projected onto the pantheon of my faith. Why would I not extend the same courtesy and respect to Christians who believe in the Trinity as stated within their theology?
Good post through and through. Especially articulate is your reasoning on the point of projection (in the narrow sense) and one I need to be on guard against myself. It is an easy trap to fall into and I have myself done it at times. Nobody has any accidental beliefs.
