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5 years ago  ::  Nov 01, 2009 - 9:34PM #31
Tenlionz
Posts: 1,792

Yes I agree and plz forgive my Monktual training tool as well, enlisting Catholic scribblings of monks to define time line and conjunction and observance. As you well know these teachings became widely distributed by those seeking wisdom such as Witch Craft and Paganism later on, and although they were stolen from Jewish Traditions even placing sacred names according to Judaism, they were held as articles of faith by Pagans and Witches through out Europe especially in the 15th and 16th century. Should I regain your most forgiving tolerance Sir, I shall continue, if not then I shall with out pause hastily delete.

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5 years ago  ::  Nov 01, 2009 - 9:43PM #32
Bunsinspace
Posts: 5,929

Nov 1, 2009 -- 9:34PM, Tenlionz wrote:


Yes I agree and plz forgive my Monktual training tool as well, enlisting Catholic scribblings of monks to define time line and conjunction and observance. As you well know these teachings became widely distributed by those seeking wisdom such as Witch Craft and Paganism later on, and although they were stolen from Jewish Traditions even placing sacred names according to Judaism, they were held as articles of faith by Pagans and Witches through out Europe especially in the 15th and 16th century. Should I regain your most forgiving tolerance Sir, I shall continue, if not then I shall with out pause hastily delete.





BS"D


It is my personal habit to encourage the use of traditions across cultural boundaries where they accomplish good and to chastise those who make use of maligning the traditions of others or use the traditions of others across cultural boundaries to do evil.  There is little distinction between myself and a Pagan apart from our specific traditions.  So the rule for me is if no harm is done, no apology is necessary and where offense is taken it must be remedied.  For me, in all these cases, no harm is done.  But for those who have personally insulted each other, conciliatory action is encouraged.   No sense is making this thread into a sourced of aggravation or grievance.  It could be a beacon of light to the occasional seeker.

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5 years ago  ::  Nov 01, 2009 - 10:02PM #33
Tenlionz
Posts: 1,792

Nov 1, 2009 -- 9:12PM, Bunsinspace wrote:


BS"D


It The Sami have legitimate traditions, the Chickasaw have legitimate traditions and the Christians have legitimate traditions. 





I disagree, 1--The Sami have no Tradition left to them which is pure. 2- Christan is not an authentic Tradition, but a stolen tradition mix of Roman and Jewish and Greek origin. The Chickasaw have no such Mis- tradition. The only interfering tradition is Christianity, and not the Jewish Cultural Jesus Rebellion that the Jews have had to deal with, but the European brand, which commits Homocide in the millions in order to perpetuate its self. I agree that the Jewish tradition has been offended here, but that gives you no rite to toss my People in the bucket with these other Cultural mis-givings nor offences.

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5 years ago  ::  Nov 01, 2009 - 10:22PM #34
Bunsinspace
Posts: 5,929

Nov 1, 2009 -- 10:02PM, Tenlionz wrote:



I disagree, 1--The Sami have no Tradition left to them which is pure. 2- Christan is not an authentic Tradition, but a stolen tradition mix of Roman and Jewish and Greek origin. The Chickasaw have no such Mis- tradition. The only interfering tradition is Christianity, and not the Jewish Cultural Jesus Rebellion that the Jews have had to deal with, but the European brand, which commits Homocide in the millions in order to perpetuate its self. I agree that the Jewish tradition has been offended here, but that gives you no rite to toss my People in the bucket with these other Cultural mis-givings nor offences.





BS"D


To me, what is practiced by a person of a certain objectively defineable ethnicity and attributed to their ancestors for several generations is tradition whether it can be defined as such by others or not.  I apologize for causing you offense by association as that was not my intent.


My personal stance is to accept what a person says is their peoples tradition if others of that people also maintain that to be the case.  I accept no third-party evidence - such as a third-party's "history" - as having any merit against such claims.  I apply the same standards to all peoples.


I may have certain knowledge of Chrsitianity which predates any Chrsitian's knowledge, but that does not permit me to negate their traditions for several generations because of that knowedge of exactly where their tradition originated from.  All I do is come against the lies that are told about one people from another people.  On tradition, I accept what is told to me as tradition for them unless it is proven not to be the case by others of the same people.


For a Christian, such traditions as the communion and the baptism are traditional actions.  For me they are sad and distant echos of the realities underlying such ceremonies in Judaism.  But I do not use my knowledge to derogate or delegitimze their traditions.


So if my sacred history says these people do such-and-such and I find from the people themselves that their tradition permits nothing of the sort, my own sacred history about them becomes null and void and their communications supplants it and becomes my new sacred history concerning them.  This is how my people has avoided superstition and stereotyping for many thousands of years except in cases of blind sectarianism or blind politics both of which dismiss tradition in favor of their own agenda.


Here is an example from my own people.


In one very rare commentary it is said of Africans that they have woolly hair and yellow streaks in their eyes and dark skin that is a sign of divine disfavor.  Of course this is one of the most extreme examples of evil stereotyping that exists in my tradition, nothing compared to that of Nation of Islam for example which describes Jews as evil creations of an insane person.  But that is no excuse.  And to combat this evil stereotype in my own sacred tradition I make it a point where even if a hint of that stereotype raises its ugly head to combat it on all levels with all of my strength.


I know Christians who do this with antisemitism among their own church-members.   I know whites and blacks who do this with anti-NDN prejudice in their own communities.  And although I know that neither Christians nor whites nor blacks constitutes in any case a people, within each categorization there exists observeable traditional actions with regard to language and behavior which spans generations.  And that is the ONLY thing I meant by tradition and in no wise intended to insult the Chickasaw people by my accidental inclusion in that categorization. 


My apologies.

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5 years ago  ::  Nov 01, 2009 - 11:24PM #35
Tenlionz
Posts: 1,792

I am completely fallen before your in-depth explanation, and truly embarrassed for my self. This is true insight and a wisdom which finds a forgiving tolerance for the many faults of the many people which strive among one another to survive and be recognized here on our little ball of mud. Chukma Shki Brother, and may I find the path of your strong insight and sense of grandeur.

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5 years ago  ::  Nov 02, 2009 - 12:36PM #36
Nay_ho_tze
Posts: 2,605

Bunsin space:

Your profound wisdom and insights are inspired,
and IMvhO, your sense of non-judgement is spot-on...
Would that more had ears to hear you,
and further,
had courage to put your words to action.

NHT

Nay_ho_tze
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designer and artist
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5 years ago  ::  Nov 02, 2009 - 3:51PM #37
Green.is.my.favorite.color
Posts: 381

I'm going to suggest something that may get me in some very hot water. But, I'm gonna give it a go, anyway.


In my mind, orthodoxy is the attempt to place that which is infinite into a framework... a paradigm. While "orthodoxy" may be accepted as "right thinking" in some (dare say most) religions, it is bad theology, in general.


*and now, here I am, handing all of you the rope by which you can hang me*


I would suggest that, at a certain level, "Shaman Tradition" is an orthodoxy. I'm not suggesting that using traditional methods don't work... they do. But given the scope of that which we attempt to encounter (which, to me, appears infinite), I would suggest there are probably infinite ways to approach "that which we seek to encounter." Undoubtedly, some, more effective than others for differnt people.


We all seek a door into NOR. I suspect mine doesn't conincide with Native American traditions. Totally fine, in my view. In fact, I'm having a very difficult time identifying with any tradition.


But then, maybe that is what marks a mystic as different than a shaman. I dunno... maybe.


Anyway, brought up in the spirit of discussion... not offense.

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5 years ago  ::  Nov 02, 2009 - 4:11PM #38
Redfrog777
Posts: 2,136

Like your thinking Green. Very well stated or suggested. 

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5 years ago  ::  Nov 03, 2009 - 11:03AM #39
Bunsinspace
Posts: 5,929

Nov 3, 2009 -- 9:02AM, Shamanmystic wrote:


3rd Lions appears to know more about Runes than me so i'll let him answer your questions..




BS"D


Thank you for the suggestion but TenLionz is Chickasaw.  I don't ask a Chickasaw about the traditions of the Sami anymore than I would ask a Christian about the traditions of a Jew.  If you refuse to share this portion of your culture, that's fine.  Nobody is forcing anybody to step up and represent.  I just thought that we could steer the conversation into an area which might be more positive.  My apologies.

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5 years ago  ::  Nov 10, 2009 - 6:27PM #40
Tenlionz
Posts: 1,792

Nov 2, 2009 -- 3:51PM, Green.is.my.favorite.color wrote:


I'm going to suggest something that may get me in some very hot water. But, I'm gonna give it a go, anyway.


In my mind, orthodoxy is the attempt to place that which is infinite into a framework... a paradigm. While "orthodoxy" may be accepted as "right thinking" in some (dare say most) religions, it is bad theology, in general.


*and now, here I am, handing all of you the rope by which you can hang me*


I would suggest that, at a certain level, "Shaman Tradition" is an orthodoxy. I'm not suggesting that using traditional methods don't work... they do. But given the scope of that which we attempt to encounter (which, to me, appears infinite), I would suggest there are probably infinite ways to approach "that which we seek to encounter." Undoubtedly, some, more effective than others for differnt people.


We all seek a door into NOR. I suspect mine doesn't conincide with Native American traditions. Totally fine, in my view. In fact, I'm having a very difficult time identifying with any tradition.


But then, maybe that is what marks a mystic as different than a shaman. I dunno... maybe.


Anyway, brought up in the spirit of discussion... not offense.




If I truly understand what you are saying here then I would like the chance to address, please correct me if I ere. I'm not sure that any way traditional or otherwise is Infinite, nothing is certain ever, and all things are finite. When we address particular regions of the paranormal we are dealing with acts of faith, even to establish our own belief in such goings on, one must act on faith. We approach these activities by those methods we our selves are able to include as articles of faith. The Christian exorcist can bring Spiritual relief "why" because he acts according to the strength of his/her faith. The Medicine Man can bring relief , why? because he to acts according to the strength in his faith, the power of faith is the true power and not the words chanted. So do we then cast all tradition to the wind and say--its all about faith? of course not. As we would be destroying the tools and articles of faith its self. Diversity is good, all creatures of the forest are not Raccoons, and all fish in the sea are not flounders, therefor we celebrate diversity and we hold our tradition dear, my tradition shows the unique quality of my people, and your traditions do the same for yours. Is one more powerful than the other? no of course not, this is again a matter of faith. respect for the traditions of others is powerful, it is a respect for "faith" and the Holy articles which belong to our constituents. I believe the Jewish faith has been trodden upon by others as well as NDN traditions and Shamanism. I believe this destroys faith, the one true power.

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