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Switch to Forum Live View The Vineyard and Kingdom Teachings
5 years ago  ::  Oct 26, 2008 - 6:05PM #1
butterflynews11
Posts: 545
Hi Smallson!
Hope you're doing well! I'm transferring your thread from the old bnet format to here and pick up where we left off:

http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message … nID=584989

It's a very interesting topic, one with much controversy, that's for sure.
There's quite a contrast between Kingdom Theology and Kingdom Now Theology, although both names can be confusing. In the past, I separated Kingdom Now Theology from the Third Wave Movement, but have since found that they're related, too.

I didn't (and still do not) agree with their theology (under which I knew as 'Dominionism' but was iffy about Kingdom Now Theology) that Christians will eventually control the world prior to Jesus' coming. I was under the impression that the name, the 'Third Wave', was the name of a revival only, e.g. 'FL Outpouring', 'Toronto Blessing', etc. But the Third Wave refers to a revival as well as a general doctrine under the umbrella of Dominionism. And like you said in one of your posts from the old thread, a lot of people in the Movement(s) may not even know about the doctrine. (paraphrase) (correct me if I misinterpreted your sayings)

What do you think of Patricia King, Rodney Howard-Browne, John Arnott, etc. since they're adherents to this theology? I think you'd mentioned grace before, in that God still uses them. (again, paraphrase.. and correct me if I'm wrong since it was awhile ago when I believe you said something to that effect) I saw God move through them many times. I spiritually grew by wanting to do the Lord's will. I got healed and delivered from chronic bodily pain and experienced a translation.
The truth is, all of us have deception in our lives. However, God still uses us for his purposes. And God also uses people who are deliberately manipulative if it's going to suit his purpose.
So throwing the baby out with the bathwater, as so many do and in so many ways - on both sides - is not helping to further God's Kingdom here on earth - in our hearts.

Paul tells us not to despise prophecies. (1Thess. 5:20) And even though there are many false prophets out there, the prophetic gifting isn't narrowed down to just that one segment of Christianity, of course. The gift itself is still in operation (as you said, too, on your thread!). But  there can be a diversion created due to the prophetic not being generally accepted in many churches. Therefore, the prophetic people are not being discipled by those who should be responsible in discipling them. And so splinter groups crop up.
One reason being is that the enemy likes to target spiritual gifts (especially prophecy) since God is speaking through a vessel. And he (satan) tries to stifle God's word from going forth.
One thing that's interesting to note is that there are many artists and musicians in these movements. And to truth is, many artists already feel like they don't fit in. So couple that with the prophetic with those who resist the prophetic, and miscommunication, division and just plain egos flare up - and that's precisely what the enemy wants.

Jesus lamented about the prophets who were killed. And while I believe that the use of the gift has always been in operation in the Church body, the prophets/prophetic people have been silenced or suppressed, i.e. 'spiritually' killed.  And when 'outbreaks' occur, the gift of prophecy becomes more numerous among the Church body. Problem is, the revival of the gift(s) is also 'a new thing', or more accurately - dormant. This brings with it immaturity. And one of the consequences of non-discipleship, producing immaturity, is that many prophets/prophetic people become overbearing and judgmental. They believe that most things they're hearing is from God but in actuality, many times they're speaking from the flesh, speaking their own thoughts and opinions instead. (I know from experience) But what gets me, is that I've seen with my own eyes, these same people would have a word from God and then have quick answers to my prayers on many occasions. That's gotta be his Grace!

So IMHO, reason there's so much immaturity in the prophetic is due to lack of discipleship. If a local congregation isn't open to spiritual gifts, the point is rather moot. But in congregations where they allow for prophecy, there's still a lot of misunderstanding among leadership and lay people. And mind you - the five-fold ministry is a handful of leadership roles that Paul had mandated to equip the church for works of service, i.e. apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. So what usually happens when a member of a church isn't allowed to use their spiritual gift or gifts? They leave the church and start their own church, for one.
But God did say that the sheep would scatter due to lack of proper spiritual guidance. This is unfortunately so, but I trust that he will work it all out.

Now the lack of discipleship isn't license to remain infants. This is true for any Christian. Especially since we have so much at our disposal today with which to grow in our Christian walk. So I'm not casting the full blame on leadership. Prophets and prophetic people are just as responsible for examining themselves and making sure they're clean vessels to avoid a gift mix. They also need to learn not to be so impulsive, another sign of immaturity that's so prevalent among them.

The renewal of the gifts of the Spirit in the Catholic and mainline churches is an indication that we're in the last days. The Charismatic churches seem to be at least in agreement in the operative moving of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Another problem is, is when the gifts are accepted, is how to apply them in a local congregation.
There's a book that I'm going to read called, 'Seven Words of Worship: The Key to a Lifetime of Experiencing God' by Mike Harland of Lifeway. Here's an overview:

'Seven Words of Worship combines biblical truth, practical application, and inspiring real life stories to clarify the reader’s understanding and living out of  worship, focusing the spiritual practice on seven key words:

Creation; Grace; Love; Response; Expression; Presence; Experience.

Indeed, worship is a leading topic throughout the church today and the central purpose for gathering the body of Christ each week. But worship style and technique are often divisive elements among believers as well. More than a subjective art form or tradition, Seven Words of Worship authors Mike Harland and Stan Moser explain that worship is foremost intended to be a pure and powerful declaration of love to God. When offered with passionate sincerity, worship brings God into our presence and makes all things possible!'

Hopefully the book touches on the prophetic since prophetic declarations and manifestations, such as flag waving and spontaneous dance can occur during worship. Hence, 'style' and 'technique' that is mentioned.

Well I'll continue later! Have a Grape day!


Steve,
I know it's been a long time, but if you're lurking, it would be great to get some input from ya! The books that you brought up look very interesting.

Hope all is well with you and your family! Btw, how are the twins doing?

Love,
Yvette
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5 years ago  ::  Oct 26, 2008 - 6:05PM #2
butterflynews11
Posts: 545
Hi Smallson!
Hope you're doing well! I'm transferring your thread from the old bnet format to here and pick up where we left off:

http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message … nID=584989

It's a very interesting topic, one with much controversy, that's for sure.
There's quite a contrast between Kingdom Theology and Kingdom Now Theology, although both names can be confusing. In the past, I separated Kingdom Now Theology from the Third Wave Movement, but have since found that they're related, too.

I didn't (and still do not) agree with their theology (under which I knew as 'Dominionism' but was iffy about Kingdom Now Theology) that Christians will eventually control the world prior to Jesus' coming. I was under the impression that the name, the 'Third Wave', was the name of a revival only, e.g. 'FL Outpouring', 'Toronto Blessing', etc. But the Third Wave refers to a revival as well as a general doctrine under the umbrella of Dominionism. And like you said in one of your posts from the old thread, a lot of people in the Movement(s) may not even know about the doctrine. (paraphrase) (correct me if I misinterpreted your sayings)

What do you think of Patricia King, Rodney Howard-Browne, John Arnott, etc. since they're adherents to this theology? I think you'd mentioned grace before, in that God still uses them. (again, paraphrase.. and correct me if I'm wrong since it was awhile ago when I believe you said something to that effect) I saw God move through them many times. I spiritually grew by wanting to do the Lord's will. I got healed and delivered from chronic bodily pain and experienced a translation.
The truth is, all of us have deception in our lives. However, God still uses us for his purposes. And God also uses people who are deliberately manipulative if it's going to suit his purpose.
So throwing the baby out with the bathwater, as so many do and in so many ways - on both sides - is not helping to further God's Kingdom here on earth - in our hearts.

Paul tells us not to despise prophecies. (1Thess. 5:20) And even though there are many false prophets out there, the prophetic gifting isn't narrowed down to just that one segment of Christianity, of course. The gift itself is still in operation (as you said, too, on your thread!). But  there can be a diversion created due to the prophetic not being generally accepted in many churches. Therefore, the prophetic people are not being discipled by those who should be responsible in discipling them. And so splinter groups crop up.
One reason being is that the enemy likes to target spiritual gifts (especially prophecy) since God is speaking through a vessel. And he (satan) tries to stifle God's word from going forth.
One thing that's interesting to note is that there are many artists and musicians in these movements. And to truth is, many artists already feel like they don't fit in. So couple that with the prophetic with those who resist the prophetic, and miscommunication, division and just plain egos flare up - and that's precisely what the enemy wants.

Jesus lamented about the prophets who were killed. And while I believe that the use of the gift has always been in operation in the Church body, the prophets/prophetic people have been silenced or suppressed, i.e. 'spiritually' killed.  And when 'outbreaks' occur, the gift of prophecy becomes more numerous among the Church body. Problem is, the revival of the gift(s) is also 'a new thing', or more accurately - dormant. This brings with it immaturity. And one of the consequences of non-discipleship, producing immaturity, is that many prophets/prophetic people become overbearing and judgmental. They believe that most things they're hearing is from God but in actuality, many times they're speaking from the flesh, speaking their own thoughts and opinions instead. (I know from experience) But what gets me, is that I've seen with my own eyes, these same people would have a word from God and then have quick answers to my prayers on many occasions. That's gotta be his Grace!

So IMHO, reason there's so much immaturity in the prophetic is due to lack of discipleship. If a local congregation isn't open to spiritual gifts, the point is rather moot. But in congregations where they allow for prophecy, there's still a lot of misunderstanding among leadership and lay people. And mind you - the five-fold ministry is a handful of leadership roles that Paul had mandated to equip the church for works of service, i.e. apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. So what usually happens when a member of a church isn't allowed to use their spiritual gift or gifts? They leave the church and start their own church, for one.
But God did say that the sheep would scatter due to lack of proper spiritual guidance. This is unfortunately so, but I trust that he will work it all out.

Now the lack of discipleship isn't license to remain infants. This is true for any Christian. Especially since we have so much at our disposal today with which to grow in our Christian walk. So I'm not casting the full blame on leadership. Prophets and prophetic people are just as responsible for examining themselves and making sure they're clean vessels to avoid a gift mix. They also need to learn not to be so impulsive, another sign of immaturity that's so prevalent among them.

The renewal of the gifts of the Spirit in the Catholic and mainline churches is an indication that we're in the last days. The Charismatic churches seem to be at least in agreement in the operative moving of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Another problem is, is when the gifts are accepted, is how to apply them in a local congregation.
There's a book that I'm going to read called, 'Seven Words of Worship: The Key to a Lifetime of Experiencing God' by Mike Harland of Lifeway. Here's an overview:

'Seven Words of Worship combines biblical truth, practical application, and inspiring real life stories to clarify the reader’s understanding and living out of  worship, focusing the spiritual practice on seven key words:

Creation; Grace; Love; Response; Expression; Presence; Experience.

Indeed, worship is a leading topic throughout the church today and the central purpose for gathering the body of Christ each week. But worship style and technique are often divisive elements among believers as well. More than a subjective art form or tradition, Seven Words of Worship authors Mike Harland and Stan Moser explain that worship is foremost intended to be a pure and powerful declaration of love to God. When offered with passionate sincerity, worship brings God into our presence and makes all things possible!'

Hopefully the book touches on the prophetic since prophetic declarations and manifestations, such as flag waving and spontaneous dance can occur during worship. Hence, 'style' and 'technique' that is mentioned.

Well I'll continue later! Have a Grape day!


Steve,
I know it's been a long time, but if you're lurking, it would be great to get some input from ya! The books that you brought up look very interesting.

Hope all is well with you and your family! Btw, how are the twins doing?

Love,
Yvette
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5 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2008 - 2:19PM #3
steve123
Posts: 610
Yvette,

Long time no hear!  It is good to see you posting.  I have been out posting here and there for a week or so now, but took a long break prior to that.  The family is doing well, twins are 13 months old now and doing great!  Thank you for asking.  I will have to re-read the posts so far so I can get back into this conversation.

So how are you doing these days?

Blessings to you and Smallson!
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5 years ago  ::  Oct 27, 2008 - 11:14PM #4
butterflynews11
Posts: 545
Hi Steve!
It's so good to see you again! Wow, the twins are growing fast, aren't they. God bless them and your others children as well.

It's been year since posting on this topic. Time sure flies. A lot has happened since then. My husband and I have had quite a few battles but we're doing really well now and finally back on our feet again, thanks be to God.
My husband was really sick for awhile and was in and out of the hospital, and I reinjured my knee, sprained my shoulder and broke my ankle and had to have surgery, all in a matter of three months. lol But we're both doing well now.

Ok! Looking forward to hearing from you!


There's a question that I'm going to ask a proponent of Dominionism. If Christians are supposed to take dominion over the earth prior to Jesus' return, what happens to the non-Christians who don't follow the laws?

Well, have a great night! God bless you and yours!
Love always, your sister Grape,
Yvette
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5 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2008 - 3:13PM #5
IndigoEcho
Posts: 120
Wow, Yvette, that was quite a comprehensive introduction! I'm intrigued now, and planning on doing a study on prophecy, to see what the Bible says about it, and to see where we agree, and disagree on what it is. I know there's a reference to some female prophets in the NT, or so I've been told.
As for dominionism...that's another study. Maybe, to stay in synch with your thread, I should start there!
Gbu and your studies, and the same to Steve,
renesara
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5 years ago  ::  Oct 28, 2008 - 9:55PM #6
smallson
Posts: 127
Hi Yvette!

Thanks.I'm doing better now than I was the previous two weeks, which were kind of depressing.Yesterday was possibly my best day of this month so far.

Concerning  Kingdom Now, Third Wave, John Arnott, etc, I think there is some confusion and some cobwebs that need to be cleared. (Please don't take this the wrong way.I hope I don't sound harsh because I don't mean it that way).

Unfortunately two of the links from the original dicussion have been deleted off the internet, both the Wikipedia article on Kingom Now theology and the Kingdom debate featuring actual Vineyard members.To bad, because they were the best articles I've found on the internet, that really help to clear some cobwebs on this issue.But atleast there is some quotations of these articles in the earlier discussion.

Anyway, I hope to respond to your comments in more detail by the weekend.


PS. Thanks for bringing the original discussion onto the new board.It saves me from doing it.Hope your week is going well and everything is good with you.

Steve,

Thanks!
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5 years ago  ::  Oct 29, 2008 - 12:59AM #7
butterflynews11
Posts: 545
Hi Renesara!
Welcome! It's so nice to see you again! Thank you for the kind words and for taking an interest on this subject. I pray that our discussion is enlightening as we explore this controversial subject. May we all gain insight from each other as we proceed with the discussion in love.

The first female prophet who comes to mind is Anna. (Luke 2:36-38) And in Acts 21:9, Philip had four daughters who prophesied. If we explore further, we'll find that it was common in the early church to prophesy, which we can find in the epistles, particularly in Corinthians.
There's a difference between 'prophet' and 'being prophetic'. And since the Apostle Paul was using generalizations when speaking on the gift of prophecy, there were bound to be those who were 'prophets'.

With the Movements come the gift of prophecy. They're intertwined. And the prophetic is one of the things that drive these Movements, imo.

Well hope to hear from you soon! And thanks again for joining in!


Hi Smallson!
Welcome back! I'm sorry to hear that the last 2 weeks have been difficult for you.
Awhile ago, you said something that spoke to me regarding problems, in that we have our own set of problems here. I hear you. Believe me, I haven't arrived... yeeks! lol And after much thought on what I said in my first post, even though we have many resources that can help us, those same resources (a myriad of them) can be confusing since they authored by many Christians from different persuasions in body of Christ.
I'm guessing that prior to our technological advances, Christians had to rely solely on the Holy Spirit (especially before the printing press where many, or even most in certain areas around the globe, people were illiterate and/or didn't have the Bible but had to rely on leaders as their main source of Christian education).

I wanted to clarify something that I said pertaining to the five-fold ministry and the leadership roles. One of the roles is prophet, and therefore, they're as much responsible to equip the saints as are the other four. But since the office of prophet had been mainly suppressed through the centuries, it remained pretty much dormant.
It's a revived gift, for the most part, that has extended to the common person. Many Christians who are gifted prophets and prophetess' or are prophetically inclined, have to learn from prophetic leaders, who themselves, have just sprung up in the last century. And compared to the last 2,000 years, that's pretty new. But to be fair, the prophetic leaders have many sound teachings and have learned (and are learning as we all are) from their mistakes.

Yeah, I was disappointed that the page on Kingdom Now Theology was removed. I wonder why that happened. hmm
I have a hard time finding objective viewpoints on things on the internet which makes it difficult for me to decipher who's speaking the truth on a subject and who isn't. uggh

Hope you have a better week. See ya later,
Love always,
Yvette
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5 years ago  ::  Oct 29, 2008 - 12:59AM #8
butterflynews11
Posts: 545
Hi Renesara!
Welcome! It's so nice to see you again! Thank you for the kind words and for taking an interest on this subject. I pray that our discussion is enlightening as we explore this controversial subject. May we all gain insight from each other as we proceed with the discussion in love.

The first female prophet who comes to mind is Anna. (Luke 2:36-38) And in Acts 21:9, Philip had four daughters who prophesied. If we explore further, we'll find that it was common in the early church to prophesy, which we can find in the epistles, particularly in Corinthians.
There's a difference between 'prophet' and 'being prophetic'. And since the Apostle Paul was using generalizations when speaking on the gift of prophecy, there were bound to be those who were 'prophets'.

With the Movements come the gift of prophecy. They're intertwined. And the prophetic is one of the things that drive these Movements, imo.

Well hope to hear from you soon! And thanks again for joining in!


Hi Smallson!
Welcome back! I'm sorry to hear that the last 2 weeks have been difficult for you.
Awhile ago, you said something that spoke to me regarding problems, in that we have our own set of problems here. I hear you. Believe me, I haven't arrived... yeeks! lol And after much thought on what I said in my first post, even though we have many resources that can help us, those same resources (a myriad of them) can be confusing since they authored by many Christians from different persuasions in body of Christ.
I'm guessing that prior to our technological advances, Christians had to rely solely on the Holy Spirit (especially before the printing press where many, or even most in certain areas around the globe, people were illiterate and/or didn't have the Bible but had to rely on leaders as their main source of Christian education).

I wanted to clarify something that I said pertaining to the five-fold ministry and the leadership roles. One of the roles is prophet, and therefore, they're as much responsible to equip the saints as are the other four. But since the office of prophet had been mainly suppressed through the centuries, it remained pretty much dormant.
It's a revived gift, for the most part, that has extended to the common person. Many Christians who are gifted prophets and prophetess' or are prophetically inclined, have to learn from prophetic leaders, who themselves, have just sprung up in the last century. And compared to the last 2,000 years, that's pretty new. But to be fair, the prophetic leaders have many sound teachings and have learned (and are learning as we all are) from their mistakes.

Yeah, I was disappointed that the page on Kingdom Now Theology was removed. I wonder why that happened. hmm
I have a hard time finding objective viewpoints on things on the internet which makes it difficult for me to decipher who's speaking the truth on a subject and who isn't. uggh

Hope you have a better week. See ya later,
Love always,
Yvette
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5 years ago  ::  Nov 01, 2008 - 1:36AM #9
butterflynews11
Posts: 545
[QUOTE=smallson;857143]Concerning  Kingdom Now, Third Wave, John Arnott, etc, I think there is some confusion and some cobwebs that need to be cleared. (Please don't take this the wrong way.I hope I don't sound harsh because I don't mean it that way).[/Q]

Hey Smallson, no offense taken. The thought never crossed my mind, and so I'm just letting you know since you seemed to be concerned about it.

Hope your week was better and keeps getting better for you. Have a good weekend. Do you work on the weekends? (if that's not too personal)

Catch ya later,
Love,
Yvette

p.s. I wonder if Sarah Palin will be brought up during this discussion. It would only seem feasible, especially since our elections are coming up on Tuesday, Nov. 4th. But no rush, we can always bring her up later regardless of the outcome, of course.
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5 years ago  ::  Nov 16, 2008 - 3:50PM #10
IndigoEcho
Posts: 120
Hi, I delved into 'prophecy' using my concordance, and so far haven't found anything really surprising. It was a severe offense in the OT to speak a false prophecy, punishable by death. I've heard many ppl prophesy things that didn't come true in churches, which is one of the reasons I don't attend a church in this community that allows people to stand up and predict the future, with dates.
However, it seems that there is a time and place for this gift, or it wouldn't have been mentioned so many times! One of its meanings seems to be a direct word to an individual or congregation, letting them know that the Spirit has revealed something that was hidden. This can come during prayer, or sleep, as in the angel's messages to Joseph, to take Mary as his wife, and to take the child Jesus to Egypt,
It's good to see you again, Smallson. It's been awhile!
Hope you're all well. I look fwd to more discussion,
Cheers,
Indi
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