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Switch to Forum Live View Baby and the bathwater--reform friendly please
7 years ago  ::  Mar 29, 2008 - 3:40AM #51
NaftaliNZ
Posts: 193
[QUOTE=yosefrachamim;389852]Just to set the record straight, see messages #3, #8, & #31

Seems to me the Rabbi and/or Judaism is being blamed, rather than the person who chose to intermarry.

Shabbat Shalom,
Yosef[/QUOTE]

What I said is "can" and "some".  I do not blame anybody.  An interesting novel you may consider reading is "The Source" by James Michener.  Parts of this novel refer to this situation.
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 29, 2008 - 9:50PM #52
yosefrachamim
Posts: 374

NaftaliNZ wrote:

What I said is "can" and "some". I do not blame anybody. An interesting novel you may consider reading is "The Source" by James Michener. Parts of this novel refer to this situation.



What you said in msg #3 was:

"Judaism can be so cruel sometimes. Certain Rabbi's for all their wisdom can be such fools."

It certainly sounded to me as though you were implying the Rabbi "in the situation under discussion" was a fool...or did wrong.

BTW....everyone has read "The Source"....and Michener, was neither Jewish nor a Poskin....and the book was "fiction".

Yosef

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7 years ago  ::  Mar 29, 2008 - 9:52PM #53
yosefrachamim
Posts: 374

Pam34 wrote:

on Yom Kippur???!!!! What the h**** was she THINKING!!! I missed or forgot about that part! Good grief! Just having a wedding on YK would GUARANTEE that nobody Jewish would be there - how can she possibly BLAME anybody at all for that, if she is the one that CHOSE THE DATE. It's not like it isn't on EVERY single calendar! I mean, it's easy enough to lose track of holidays that DON'T make it to the calendar - like maybe Tu B'Shevat - but YOM KIPPUR????



My guess is that the date was chosen after the Rabbi said he would not officiate at an intermarriage.

...as a parting shot at Judaism, so-to-speak.

Yosef

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7 years ago  ::  Mar 29, 2008 - 9:59PM #54
mlarue75
Posts: 1,199
[QUOTE=yosefrachamim;393531]My guess is that the date was chosen after the Rabbi said he would not officiate at an intermarriage.

...as a parting shot at Judaism, so-to-speak.

Yosef[/QUOTE]Yes, exactly.  That was what I got from it on initial reading -- which was why I thought blaming the rabbi for not even attending the wedding was a specious argument.

I still find it odd that the rabbi's position on intermarriage was something of which she (the friend) was unaware.  It's such a big question in Reform these days.  Oh well, we'll probably never know what went on in those conversations, but the word transference does come to mind.  From a Freudian point of view, it makes perfect sense.  A shame, from all points of view.
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 30, 2008 - 1:02PM #55
lauramushkat
Posts: 625
If she wants to remain friendly and you do also regardless of her religous choices-stay her friend.

I find it very interesting that she sent her stuff to you and did not give or throw them away.  This is some sort of message.

I would put her stuff in a safe place marking it hers in case of anything happening to you. 

Then just be her friend.  If she wants to talk religon with you in any way, just listen.

It is almost like she was looking for an excuse.  She has got to be aware that a Rabbi can not perform a weadding ceremony and really should not attend as a guest when it is interfaith. That being said you can sometimes look on the internet and find a so called unaffiliated Rabbi who will do this.  A prominent local Rabbi, known to be very greedy and charging high rates for weddings and funerals, who had stopped being a Reform Rabbi and taught in a local college, would on occassion officiate at weddings with priests or ministers.  He was criticized for this by other local Rabbis including Reform but he laughed all the way to the bank.  These people are very rarer.  They can be found however.

Our family was friends with a Rabbi and his family for years.  He married me and my late husband, performed the naming of our daughters and even tho we moved stayed our friend.  When our daughter married outside the faith we would never have thought to ask him even for a blessing.  Instead my husbnd cousin who was a judge performed the ceremony. 

You friend was unreasonable about her reasons for leaving and it actually makes no sense.  But there you go-firendship is like a marriage-if you are loyal they are friends for good or bad.

Just be her friend.  If she decides to come back to Judaism or not.

Hugs
Laura
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 30, 2008 - 1:20PM #56
lauramushkat
Posts: 625
ok kiddo what are you smoking?

I was just going thru the posts on here and I saw that you said that if a female Jew marries a non-Jew the children are not considered Jewish unless they have a outward ceremony.  If I read this correctly you are WRONG.

In fact a Jew hearing that your mother is Jewish and father is not thinks of you as Jewish.  Many a person who has been raised Christian by a Jewish mom has found this out!  It is they who have to offer proof that they are NOT a Jew and often are considered Jews by Jews anyway!

Check your facts bubbila!

ofcourse if you did not mean what I read-ooooooops.
hugs
Laura
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 30, 2008 - 1:42PM #57
lauramushkat
Posts: 625
Kids of intermarried parrents who are being brought up Jewish learn to respect (hopefully) the religon of their non-Jewish relatives and actually find certain things easier.  You only need to worry about who goes to whose home when you are talking non-religous holidays like Thanksgiving.  It is easy to know where you go on religous holidays and which ones you are a person who partakes in the celebration or at which ones you are a watcher.

This is not to say that being a kid of intermarried parrents can not have a downside if both decide to be religous or decisive.  My daughter has it easier because her in-laws are United Methodist-a very liberal Christian group.
Non of the UM children married in their faith. Also her husband does not believe in organized religon but does believe in supporting his wife 100%.

Hugs
Laura
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 30, 2008 - 4:59PM #58
yosefrachamim
Posts: 374

lauramushkat wrote:

ok kiddo what are you smoking?

I was just going thru the posts on here and I saw that you said that if a female Jew marries a non-Jew the children are not considered Jewish unless they have a outward ceremony. If I read this correctly you are WRONG.

In fact a Jew hearing that your mother is Jewish and father is not thinks of you as Jewish. Many a person who has been raised Christian by a Jewish mom has found this out! It is they who have to offer proof that they are NOT a Jew and often are considered Jews by Jews anyway!
Check your facts bubbila!
ofcourse if you did not mean what I read-ooooooops.
hugs
Laura



Of course I meant what I said.:)

...it is one of the quirks of the reform position on patrilineal descent.

Both CJ and OJ would consider any child of a halachic Jewish mother to be Jewish, bit that is NOT the reform position.

From the reform Judaism website: LINK

"The Reform position on this question, referred to as Patrilineal Descent, is often misunderstood. What we say is that child born of one Jewish parent, whether it is the mother or the father, is under the PRESUMPTION of being Jewish, but that his/her Jewishness must be activated by "appropriate and timely" Jewish acts. It is not enough to simply be born to a Jewish parent. For a boy, one such act would certainly be brit milah. Without that, one might question this child's Jewishness."

Weird, isn't it?

Yosef

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7 years ago  ::  Mar 30, 2008 - 7:13PM #59
clyde5001
Posts: 3,501
I (personally) believe that the child of one Jewish parent (male or female) should be presumed Jewish.

It's wrong for the C or O movements to make a child of a Jewish father, especially if they've been raised Jewish, go through the same rigorous conversion as the child of two gentiles.

There should be some presumption of Jewishness.
Shema Y'Israel Adnai Eloheinu, Adonei Echad.

Am Y'Israel Chai!

23,298 posts as of 2/27/2009

3,208 after the transition.

A 20,090 difference.
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 30, 2008 - 7:30PM #60
mlarue75
Posts: 1,199
[QUOTE=clyde5001;395372]I (personally) believe that the child of one Jewish parent (male or female) should be presumed Jewish.

It's wrong for the C or O movements to make a child of a Jewish father, especially if they've been raised Jewish, go through the same rigorous conversion as the child of two gentiles.

There should be some presumption of Jewishness.[/QUOTE]
I think so too.  I was rather surprised by the R ruling -- probably it's "sauce for the gander, sauce for the goose" to paraphrase the old saying.

On the other hand, I have a 4th grader whose parents are divorced and who shuttles back and forth between a Jewish family and a Christian one.  I think both parents are Jewish but I'm not sure.  I know her stepfather is Christian.  We made Hanukkah cards in early December and she said, "Ms. LaRue, I've finished my Hanukkah cards.  May I make Christmas cards now?"

I picked my teeth up off the ground, said no, and spent the next session explaining the differences between Judaism and Christianity.  Some kids got it, most didn't.  I think they lump Moses, the Tooth Fairy, Jesus, Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and Harry Potter together:  cute myths for little kids, not to be taken seriously.  (Forget the Rambam and Rashi.)  And yet they can't wait to be old enough to fast on Yom Kippur.  :confused:

The whole experience gave me a glimpse into why Reform is insisting on some kind of Jewish education.  So many adults are woefully ignorant (but certainly not all).  I'd drag them all back into the classroom if I could!
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