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Switch to Forum Live View Baby and the bathwater--reform friendly please
5 years ago  ::  Mar 26, 2008 - 6:57PM #11
Pam34
Pam34
Posts: 2,447
Look -
if it isn't 'two Jews' getting married then it isn't a 'Jewish wedding', no matter WHO presides over it. It's just a wedding - quite legal and no doubt very nice. But it isn't a JEWISH wedding, because a Jewish wedding is between two Jews.

and if she didn't know that, then she certainly should have.

Whether the rabbi could have/should have/might have attended AS A GUEST - well, perhaps he might, but he chose not to (or did she even INVITE him as a guest) for whatever good reasons he might have. I'd be guessing - but that responsa from the Reform movement might have something to do with it.

She needs to get over herself. She's married. She's supposed to be an adult.

Keep her stuff for her for later, maybe, and tell her to grow up.

If her self identity as a Jew depends on whether a rabbi will or won't marry her, that's pretty weak identification.
Blessed are You, HaShem, Who blesses the years.
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5 years ago  ::  Mar 26, 2008 - 7:25PM #12
phaco
phaco
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Who had a difficult childhood and lived for most of her adult life as a practicing Jew.  Anyone who has had a relationship with a rabbi and then been denied even his presence at an important life event can sympathasize with this situation.  Of course the rabbi needs to make his own call about which weddings he will and will not attend.  However, any kind of friend needs to be especially careful about hurt feelings in this situation.  A spirtual; leader can do enormous damage and he should be aware of thios fact.

A wedding between two people, when one is a Jew is an opportunity to create a Jewish family.  Even though the wedding may not be halachically Jewish.  Since two Jews marry each other anyhow, and the rabbi's only officially neccessary role is for the state I dont see really how it should be such a problem to perform some type of ceremony even if "haray at" is left out.  Certainly attending as a guest should pose no problem for someone whop has gone to CHristian weddings.

I am holding her things for her.  I hope she comes around.  I hope she manages to avoid all of the toxic, judgmental, personalities out there.
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5 years ago  ::  Mar 26, 2008 - 7:33PM #13
clyde5001
clyde5001
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If this is her path, perhaps her conversion was a mistake.

There was never a need for a conversion. Her father was a Jew, she was raised as a Jew, therefore she is a Jew.
Shema Y'Israel Adnai Eloheinu, Adonei Echad.

Am Y'Israel Chai!

23,298 posts as of 2/27/2009

3,208 after the transition.

A 20,090 difference.
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5 years ago  ::  Mar 26, 2008 - 9:25PM #14
Pam34
Pam34
Posts: 2,447
If she wants the rabbi to respect her choices, then she should be ready to respect his. Maybe he never enters churches. Maybe he doesn't want to attend a ceremony which he wouldn't be willing to perform. Maybe she didn't invite him because he wouldn't officiate at the ceremony.

We don't know her and we don't know all the details of what happened  - but going only by what you have shared with us: my opinion is that she is behaving childishly. But remembering my state of mind when I got married, it's a wonder some kind soul didn't incarcerate me in a nice friendly soothing mental home until I calmed down!

I'd still hang onto her stuff, in hopes that she changes her mind later on. As for what to tell her - well, what do you want to tell her? Do you have to tell her anything right this minute? Does SHE want you to tell her something? Is she looking for validation that she's doing the right thing? Do you think she did the right thing? If you don't - then what do YOU think you should tell her?

You COULD just tell her:' I'm staying out of this now. This is between you and Rabbi so and so.'

Oh, and of course, congratulations on a lovely wedding.
Blessed are You, HaShem, Who blesses the years.
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5 years ago  ::  Mar 26, 2008 - 9:37PM #15
yosefrachamim
yosefrachamim
Posts: 374

clyde5001 wrote:

If this is her path, perhaps her conversion was a mistake.

There was never a need for a conversion. Her father was a Jew, she was raised as a Jew, therefore she is a Jew.



Kumbaya!

Yosef

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5 years ago  ::  Mar 26, 2008 - 9:43PM #16
clyde5001
clyde5001
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yosefrachamim wrote:

Kumbaya!

Yosef



I thought that was a crap song when I was a Xian and I think it's one now. So you can save your keystrokes on that.

You're not a poskun. I don't accept your authority over this. And since this halacha was changed arbitrarily 2,000 years, I don't see it as legit either.

I take Judaism very seriously. Just not yours. Obviously you never elected to join the entire Jewish people. Otherwise you would treat them with a semblance of respect. Last time I checked, when you joined the family, you got the entire family. Apparently not good enough for you. Most of us aren't "pure" enough. So maybe your successive conversions were less and less sincere.

Shema Y'Israel Adnai Eloheinu, Adonei Echad.

Am Y'Israel Chai!

23,298 posts as of 2/27/2009

3,208 after the transition.

A 20,090 difference.
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5 years ago  ::  Mar 26, 2008 - 9:45PM #17
Pam34
Pam34
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Getting the whole package goes both ways, clyde. I never much liked that song either - and I totally fail to see how it 'proves' anything whatsoever.
Blessed are You, HaShem, Who blesses the years.
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5 years ago  ::  Mar 26, 2008 - 9:48PM #18
clyde5001
clyde5001
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Pam,

Obviously I  was born into this.

There is no here that I do not see as a Jew - or any patrilineal either .

But it's obvious that for some, they got a lot of relatives they really didn't want and could live well without.
Shema Y'Israel Adnai Eloheinu, Adonei Echad.

Am Y'Israel Chai!

23,298 posts as of 2/27/2009

3,208 after the transition.

A 20,090 difference.
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5 years ago  ::  Mar 26, 2008 - 10:02PM #19
yosefrachamim
yosefrachamim
Posts: 374

clyde5001 wrote:

I take Judaism very seriously. Just not yours. Obviously you never elected to join the entire Jewish people. Otherwise you would treat them with a semblance of respect. Last time I checked, when you joined the family, you got the entire family. Apparently not good enough for you. Most of us aren't "pure" enough. So maybe your successive conversions were less and less sincere.



You are mistaking my intent.

I have no problem with reform Jews or conservative Jews...some of my best friends belong to those branches...although I will admit that I don't want my kids to marry one! :)

I am still operating under the assumption that this is a discussion forum....to discuss issues....am I wrong?

Is it an "agreement forum"...where you all get together to agree with one another and pat each other on the back?

When I get together with my liberal Jewish friends we have fun, and we don't discuss these things because there is no point.... I think I come across much more harsh in this forum than I would in person because we are limited to the written word ,and I disagree with much of what is said here because Judaism means so much to me and it was a very difficult and long road to get to where I am now [insert sarcastic remark here] :)

I believe that as Jews, we are all in the boat together and are all responsible for one another....all 4 sons make up the Klal....an important lesson.

...and great segue into Pesach.

Yosef

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5 years ago  ::  Mar 26, 2008 - 10:31PM #20
clyde5001
clyde5001
Posts: 3,501
I've been here for 8 years and I have never felt as scorned by another Jew - and that includes when I was apostate - as I do by you. And I know I'm not the only one.

You're hurting us. :(
Shema Y'Israel Adnai Eloheinu, Adonei Echad.

Am Y'Israel Chai!

23,298 posts as of 2/27/2009

3,208 after the transition.

A 20,090 difference.
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