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6 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2009 - 9:37AM #1
GeoSage
Posts: 13
I have a friend who is into alternative spirituality. She had asked me a couple times about journeying and meditation (No relation to the girl on the other thread). I have explained to her that there is a difference between meditation and journeying and that when you journey to other realms that you must do so with intention not just to do it. Well she found some group that she has been  associating her self with and all they do is journey. They did a journey to the other side and afterward she began to alienate her self from everyone around her. One of my students had a conversation with her and she said that she doesn't need anyone now because she has met a spirit that says it loves her. When asked who this spirit was she said it was God. The alarming thing is that she says that when this spirit is angry it chokes her, pushes her down the stairs and then apologizes and says it loves her. As she continues to journey to meet up with this spirit she said that the first spirit was accomponied by a second one that said it was Jesus and that it also loved her, but also abuses her and makes her heart palpitate when she is not doing what it asks.  Well she is at the point that she is no longer in love with her husband, started giving her things away because she also loves the spirits and they said that they will be together soon. This is the pretty condensed down version of this situation.

Well my question is, do you feel that it is right to save someone who doesn't want to be saved? She seems happy and content with where her path is leading her and she now spends all of her pesonal time journeying to be with this spirit. I also understand that some times in our practice we have to be indifferent to certain situations. I have been on this specific path for about 6-7 years now and I have never encountered some actually stuck on the other side. I never claim to be the all knowing that is why I am here and would like to her some guidance on my next move.

                                                              Geo
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2009 - 11:01AM #2
kraventhearcher
Posts: 170
Let her work it out herself.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2009 - 7:58AM #3
Bunsinspace
Posts: 5,922
[QUOTE=GeoSage;1013472]I... Well my question is, do you feel that it is right to save someone who doesn't want to be saved? She seems happy and content with where her path is leading her and she now spends all of her pesonal time journeying to be with this spirit. I also understand that some times in our practice we have to be indifferent to certain situations. I have been on this specific path for about 6-7 years now and I have never encountered some actually stuck on the other side. I never claim to be the all knowing that is why I am here and would like to her some guidance on my next move.

                                                              Geo[/QUOTE]

BS"D

If you love her, then you are obligated to demonstrate what love really is contrary to this whack "spirit."  If you don't love her, you're just gonna have to leave her be because nothing you can do or say can compete with that kind of a hold on someone.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2009 - 8:25PM #4
Tenlionz
Posts: 1,792
Yes I agree, nothing can be done with some one that invites theze Spirits, only if she iz willing to be free of them can the Spirits be sent away.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2009 - 2:11AM #5
Whisperingal
Posts: 25,009
Geo--hi.

It's not ethical to work on/for someone who has not in any way asked you to.

You could--if you so chose--try to work with the "spirit" and see what happens.

But be advised that this is not a question of "conquering" or "destroying": someone/something--but of understanding what the intention is.

Does that make sense to you?

Sending good thoughts your way.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2009 - 2:12AM #6
Whisperingal
Posts: 25,009
You could also do some visionary-type work--that wouldn't be unethical.

Have you ever done that kind of work before? We can talk about it if you have not.

Just let me know.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2009 - 10:25AM #7
GeoSage
Posts: 13
Thank you all so very much for your guidance. Yes this is true that this is her battle that she must want to fight. I guess that my ego sometimes gets in the way and makes it hard for me to stand by and watch someone that I percieve to be suffering suffer, but on the other hand as you all have reminded me is that I can't  ethically stick my nose in where it is not wanted. Yes I have done visionary work before, but after really pondering this I'm just going to take a back seat to this because if I begin doing visionary work then I will get more and more drawn in to this situation. I will show and give her encouragement and support from afar. I will continue to email her even if she doesn't respond back. The healing medicine of the words may  find their way to her and help her to tune into a different frequency then she is on at this moment and may aid in breaking the hold that bonds her to these entities.

                                                       Geo
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 15, 2009 - 5:54AM #8
Gadgett
Posts: 10
At the risk of speaking out as someone who's delt with abuse before.

Yes she may not want the help but it doesn't mean it should be allowed to continue. It could very well cost your friends life. What happens when these spirits start making more and more demands or even worse unrealist demands.

Honestly I would try and talk to her and get her to understand what is happening, surprisingly she might not realize that she is being abused. If that doesn't work then, *again speaking out of my knowledge realm here currently* Maybe you can talk to your spirit guides or even hers and try and help that way.

Bottom line she may end up hating you for it but at least you can sleep knowing you had potentionally saved someone's life.

-Gadg
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 15, 2009 - 7:04AM #9
TheWhiteHart
Posts: 1,634
Also speaking as someone who has suffered from abuse, one should always look carefully at ideas of doing something for 'someone's own good'. It is a difficult question, and treading on someone's free will, especially an adult's (presumably), should never be done lightly. There are times when you can help, and times when you cannot. If someone doesn't wish to be helped, then the situation is trickier and there will always be people that cannot be 'saved'.

You can offer to help, but if that help is refused, then you will need to stand aside and let that person be. It is their life to screw up or not, after all. If you take someone's choice away from them, and do it for them, then you have intruded upon their free will and spirit. They will be the ones to live with the consequences of their choice. It isn't anyone else's responsibility. It is difficult sometimes to stand aside and let people live how they want. Even harder to stand back and let them die how they want.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 15, 2009 - 8:35AM #10
Bunsinspace
Posts: 5,922
[QUOTE=TheWhiteHart;1020191]... Even harder to stand back and let them die how they want.[/QUOTE]

BS"D

Yes, that is the hardest thing to do, but it is something that must be done sometimes.

If a person is drowning and you jump in to save them, if they struggle they will cause you both to drown.  You have two commonly acceptable choices - knock them unconscious and save them or back off and let them drown.  Both are terrible choices.  There is, of course, a third choice which is choosing to drown with them.  Whatever choice is made incurs responsibility.  For myself, it is only tradition and trainng that makes one choice more acceptable than another.

We can't really know another's heart.  And we certainly cannot walk another's path.  I beleive as you mentioned that most of the evil that is done is when we treat adults as children and ignore their free will to make their own decisions.  We are responsible for a child's life, but an adult is responsible for their own.

From the past of my people I am sick and tired of people treating certain others as if they were "children" and using that to justify so many atrocities.  When one intends to do kindness to one who is self-destructive, one must be very aware of the situation.  Without a relationship I believe one has NO RIGHT to make assumptions on what constitutes their highest good.  Even WITH a relationship that is a questionable assumption at best.

So I agree with you that a person has no right to assume what is best for another person, even if that person appears to be self-destructive.  Sometimes there are very good reasons for such behaviors or the actions may be completely misunderstood by an uninvolved observer.  That is why, to me, the relationship is the prerequisite for ANY action that is not an immediate case of life and death.  If one judges only according to their own experiences, one should pray that those experiences actually apply in this case. 

Other than a suicide hotline, I believe as you do that a person has no right to run roughshod over another's free will - whether to manipulate or to coerce.
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