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Switch to Forum Live View The Separation of Church and State
5 years ago  ::  Feb 02, 2010 - 10:22PM #151
Housecall
Posts: 580

This country was started by a christian colony  and even after the signing of the constitution. the proof is in history. It show that who were living at that time, have to be a christian or a heathen. I don't think that they would elect a government that doesn't believe in Christ. It would of been a wild witch hunt if they did.


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   And I stated that this country was based on Christianity. and when a person that want to be a citizen. Should know that this country speaks English and a God fearing country.


 If I'm staying at a friend house. I'll respect their rules and lifestyle. I wouldn't even think about telling them that they're going to have to change their ways. If I didn't like their ways, I'll use my feet that God have given me and get up and walk away.

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5 years ago  ::  Feb 02, 2010 - 10:40PM #152
Summer813
Posts: 325

Feb 2, 2010 -- 10:22PM, Housecall wrote:


This country was started by a christian colony  and even after the signing of the constitution. the proof is in history.



There is nothing in the Constitution about Christianity. If this were meant to be a nation based on Christianity, it would be in there. It isn't. Ergo, we aren't.


It show that who were living at that time, have to be a christian or a heathen.



I don't even know what you are trying to say with that sentence. Care to elucidate?


I don't think that they would elect a government that doesn't believe in Christ.



Governments aren't individuals; they therefore don't have beliefs. They are made up of individuals, and we DO elect non-Christians to government offices. There are Jews, Muslims and atheists who have been elected to Congress, just for example. And it says right in our Constitution that no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any  office or public trust under the United States. (Article VI, section 3)


It would of been a wild witch hunt if they did.



Again, I have no idea what you mean by that.


 


And I stated that this country was based on Christianity.



And you're wrong.


and when a person that want to be a citizen. Should know that this country speaks English



I doubt anyone moving to the United States is unaware that Americans mostly speak English.


and a God fearing country.



What are you trying to say? That no one should move here or live here unless they "fear" a deity? The Founding Fathers, and the laws they made, differ with you.


If I'm staying at a friend house. I'll respect their rules and lifestyle. I wouldn't even think about telling them that they're going to have to change their ways.



Now what the heck are you on about?


If I didn't like their ways, I'll use my feet that God have given me and get up and walk away.



"Scuse me, but I was born in the U.S., of American citizens who were also born in the U.S. I'm as American as (I assume) you are, but I'm not a Christian. Are you seriously trying to tell me that I should leave because of my religion? If so, then allow me to introduce you to another American tradition: the use of the phrase "Them's fightin' words."




Shared pain is lessened, shared joy increased. Thus do we refute entropy. - Mike Callahan, Callahan's Crosstime Saloon
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5 years ago  ::  Feb 03, 2010 - 6:53AM #153
Housecall
Posts: 580

   Back in them days, Their method to insured that you're speaking the truth in court was to swore on the Bible not the Qua ran or Kabalah. Why did they use the Bible? In order for them to use this method. they must of believe that this Book has power. They could had swore on their grandma"s grave or something else. But they didn't. So this country history leave a trail of bread crumbs to Christianity. Even though that some of the crumbs weren't good like the Salem witch-hunt and the Klan that were burning crosses to show that they were believers of the word. They could have use any name like Zeus, But they claim to did it in God's name. 

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5 years ago  ::  Feb 03, 2010 - 7:11AM #154
Housecall
Posts: 580
[/quote]
Well that the American way. But it's not godly. I'm just showing you all how God's word can be rubbed out if you let non-believers in your homes. Jezebel is a non-believer and she took over King Ahab mind and soul, but Ruth was a non-believer also, But she was very submissive to Naomi and didn't change anything in Naomi life. but Ruth converted to Naomi ways.  

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5 years ago  ::  Feb 03, 2010 - 12:36PM #155
TPaine
Posts: 9,259

Feb 3, 2010 -- 7:11AM, Housecall wrote:


Well that the American way. But it's not godly. I'm just showing you all how God's word can be rubbed out if you let non-believers in your homes. Jezebel is a non-believer and she took over King Ahab mind and soul, but Ruth was a non-believer also, But she was very submissive to Naomi and didn't change anything in Naomi life. but Ruth converted to Naomi ways.  


 




You're proving Summer's point. By stating that the American way is not "godly" and that "God's word can be rubbed out" you're admitting that the United States is not (and never has been) a Christian Nation. The Father of the Constitution, James Madison, often wrote that the church and the state should remain separate.

"Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together." -- James Madison (Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822).


It was Madison that succeeded in getting Thomas Jefferson's Bill For Establishing Religious Freedom through the Virginia Legislature. It was also Madison who wrote the First Amendment to the Constitution which clearly states that no law can be passed that establishes a religion in the United States.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


"It is always to be taken for granted, that those who oppose an equality of rights never mean the exclusion should take place on themselves." -- Thomas Paine: Dissertations on First Principles of Government (July 7, 1795)
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5 years ago  ::  Feb 03, 2010 - 1:09PM #156
Summer813
Posts: 325

Also, Housecall, if you look into the laws of this country - and again I direct you to the Constitution, which is the premiere governing document of the United States, overriding ALL other laws in the country - there is NO stipulation that oaths of office or in court or anywhere else must be sworn on a Bible. There is no stipulation that oaths must be sworn on anything involving religion at all. If someone who is being sworn into office or into court wants to use a Bible, they may, but if they want to use some other religious book, that is also okay under American law. It's also okay under American law for them to use no religious book whatsoever, and even for them to affirm rather than to swear an oath, if oathtaking is against theirbeliefs. Oh - and do you know which religion is well-known in America for affirming rather than oathtaking because they hold oathtaking to be in violation of their beliefs? Quakers. The Quakers are Christian. And Quakers will not swear on a Bible.


Religion is never mentioned in the Constitution, except to say that Congress shall make no law regarding religion, either to promote or to restrict it, and that there shall be no religious test or requirement for holding office. This speaks volumes regarding the desire of the Founders to never entangle religion with government and secular law. They were well aware that mixing religion and government can lead to persecution, and wanted to avoid that at all costs. Their goal was to guarantee the freedom of every American or guest on American soil to practice his or her religion according to the dictates of his or her conscience in accordance with his or her perception of the Divine. The Founders knew that the ONLY way to do this was to set up an entirely secular government that left religion up to individuals.

Shared pain is lessened, shared joy increased. Thus do we refute entropy. - Mike Callahan, Callahan's Crosstime Saloon
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5 years ago  ::  Feb 03, 2010 - 2:26PM #157
Housecall
Posts: 580

Yeah, according to the scriptures you're not to swear. But in them days they were young in the word. they just came from a country that didn't practice Christianity in the right way. the real text is basically teaching us good morals or to complete the creation of man. But they didn't have that much knowledge of the scriptures, So what made them use the Bible of all books to sworn or swear by? Later on in life. they have change the rules so that it will make people to feel comfortable. I never seen or heard any presidents that rejected to be sworn into office by the bible. Only reason people wanted the scriptures out of their lives is because they don't want to feel threaten while they partying , whoremongers and etc...  The Mythical text teaches how to pleasure yourself all day and night. And even their Gods are fornicating among each other. Even Zeus had a thing for one of the male God. Maybe if we allowed the church back into states affairs, then Clinton wouldn't  had committed adultery with them interns. We all needs a supreme guidance. So, we need God to govern our country or else we will become like the city of Sodom.

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5 years ago  ::  Feb 03, 2010 - 3:09PM #158
Summer813
Posts: 325

Housecall, I and the rest of the participants here are talking about the United States and the Founding Fathers thereof. Who, exactly, are you talking about with your thems and theys and such?


Also, we are speaking of whether or not the Constitution of the United States unites or separates church and state. You, on the other hand, do not appear to be discussing this at all, but rather, trying to preach sermons. This is not the place to preach sermons.


We appear to be having very different discussions. Only one of them is actually germane to the topic of this thread.

Shared pain is lessened, shared joy increased. Thus do we refute entropy. - Mike Callahan, Callahan's Crosstime Saloon
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5 years ago  ::  Feb 03, 2010 - 3:36PM #159
amcolph
Posts: 17,320

Feb 3, 2010 -- 2:26PM, Housecall wrote:


So what made them use the Bible of all books to sworn or swear by? Later on in life. they have change the rules so that it will make people to feel comfortable.



Because they happened to be Christians.  Nobody made them use the Bible, and no, the rules haven't changed.  One need not use the Bible if it is not his holy book, and need not use a holy book of any kind.  That's the way it has always been in this country.


 


 

Only reason people wanted the scriptures out of their lives is because they don't want to feel threaten while they partying , whoremongers and etc... 



As a Christian, I find false statements of this kind highly offensive.

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5 years ago  ::  Feb 03, 2010 - 5:46PM #160
TPaine
Posts: 9,259

Feb 3, 2010 -- 2:26PM, Housecall wrote:


Only reason people wanted the scriptures out of their lives is because they don't want to feel threaten while they partying , whoremongers and etc...  The Mythical text teaches how to pleasure yourself all day and night. And even their Gods are fornicating among each other. Even Zeus had a thing for one of the male God. Maybe if we allowed the church back into states affairs, then Clinton wouldn't  had committed adultery with them interns. We all needs a supreme guidance. So, we need God to govern our country or else we will become like the city of Sodom.



The lack of knowledge of the world's religions expressed here is frightening. Obviously it shows a lack of knowledge of things like the Qur'an and Sharia Law if the poster believes that all Islam cares about is "partying, whoremongers, and etc." Which mythical texts are we talking about here? the Jewish Tanakh? the Muslim Qur'an? the Bahá'í Alkitab Alaqdas? the Sikh Guru Granth Sahib? the Shangdi Five Classics? All are monotheistic religions, so I doubt their one God is fornicating with gods that don't exist. Yeah, we could let the the church back into states affairs. That would keep Christians such as Mark Sanford, John Ensign, John Edwards, Chip Pickering, Ted Haggard, and Jimmy Swaggart from committing adultery. Oh, wait, you mean they did commit adultery? Whoops, my mistake. Maybe the church should first solve the problem with their own affairs, then they could worry about the states.

"It is always to be taken for granted, that those who oppose an equality of rights never mean the exclusion should take place on themselves." -- Thomas Paine: Dissertations on First Principles of Government (July 7, 1795)
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