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Switch to Forum Live View Judge Halts "I Believe" Plates
6 years ago  ::  Dec 13, 2008 - 4:06PM #11
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

TPaine wrote:

And they raise no church/state issues


LOL! :) Actually, mine reads, "God gave us reason, not religion."



i kinda like the DC Atheists societies-Be Good for Goodness Sake-Billboard

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 14, 2008 - 4:03PM #12
TPaine
Posts: 9,285

davelaw40 wrote:

i kinda like the DC Atheists societies-Be Good for Goodness Sake-Billboard


What a novel idea! Does that mean you don't need a deity to act in a civilized manner?

"It is always to be taken for granted, that those who oppose an equality of rights never mean the exclusion should take place on themselves." -- Thomas Paine: Dissertations on First Principles of Government (July 7, 1795)
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 22, 2008 - 6:47AM #13
Kerplunk
Posts: 198
[QUOTE=TPaine;956199]What a novel idea! Does that mean you don't need a deity to act in a civilized manner?[/QUOTE]


Define civilized manner.
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 22, 2008 - 8:09AM #14
davelaw40
Posts: 19,669

Kerplunk wrote:

Define civilized manner.



Do you really need the etymology of the word civitas and its various progeny?

Non Quis, Sed Quid
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 22, 2008 - 12:46PM #15
EyesoftheWorld
Posts: 1,707
[QUOTE=TPaine;956199]What a novel idea! Does that mean you don't need a deity to act in a civilized manner?[/QUOTE]

If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814
What Fatal Flowers of Darkness Bloom from Seeds of Light!
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 22, 2008 - 2:18PM #16
mountain_man
Posts: 39,105
[QUOTE=Tmarie64;954464]...  Who cares?[/QUOTE]
I care. The government has no business promoting religion. They should not offer any religiously based content for any government issued document or plate. The ONLY reason these self proclaimed christians want their religion on a government issued license plate is to give the impression that the government is promoting the christian religion.

If these self proclaimed christians need to have their religion on their car, or whatever, they can buy all the bumper stickers and plaster them all over their car. There is absolutely no need, nor requirement, to have their religion on a license plate. Putting any religion on a government issued license plate violates all 3 parts of the Lemon Test.
Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 22, 2008 - 3:23PM #17
Lookbeyond
Posts: 578
[QUOTE=TPaine;954392]It appears that the establishment clause won this round. One belief system can't be favored by the state over others. This is not a Christian Nation, nor has it ever been. Freedom of or from religion was considered important enough by our Founding Fathers to list first along with speech, the press, assembly, and the right to petition government for redress of grievances in the first of the ten amendments that make up our Bill of Rights.


You are one of those who just can't resist misinterpeting the Constitutiion by failing to quote the actual Right established!!!!    ..."Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of frievances.  Amendment I, Bill of Rights, December 15, 1791.....

No where does it mention freedom of or from religion.....that is your desire! This has always been a Christian Nation since it's very beginning.....our government and laws were founded on Christian principles.....the Ten Commandments had a great influence in sculpturing our laws! Don't look now, but the halls of government have many inscriptions alluding to this fact!  In God we Trust is simply a right given to all who so choose to believe in God.....there is no religious persuasion forced down our throats today. You need to visit some of the European Countries where such is the case.....you can't be employed in Denmark by the State, if you do not belong to the Lutheran Church. Italy and Spain have been oppressive to their people because of Catholicism.....The early Founding Fathers were under the influences of these oppressive governments and sought freedom from "forced religion" upon them! Hence, we have a Constitution that protects our rights to worship how, where and what we choose! And if someone wants to celebrate Christmas....that is their Constitutional right....and they can do it where and when they choose if they do it peaceably!
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 22, 2008 - 4:05PM #18
DoorNumber3
Posts: 1,122

Lookbeyond wrote:

You are one of those who just can't resist misinterpeting the Constitutiion by failing to quote the actual Right established!!!! ..."Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of frievances. Amendment I, Bill of Rights, December 15, 1791.....

Lookbeyond wrote:



No where does it mention freedom of or from religion.....that is your desire!



It is pretty much an accepted that the Constitution guarantees freedom of religion. Combined with other things that the FF wrote there can be little doubt that their desire was to form a country where government and religion don’t mix.


Lookbeyond wrote:

This has always been a Christian Nation since it's very beginning.....our government and laws were founded on Christian principles.....the Ten Commandments had a great influence in sculpturing our laws!



Nonsense. It isn’t illegal in our country to have multiple gods or to have idols or to work on Sunday or to covet your neighbor’s ass for that matter. Prove that the TCs influenced our laws. Name one law we have that is unique to the Judeo Christian religion.


Lookbeyond wrote:

Don't look now, but the halls of government have many inscriptions alluding to this

Lookbeyond wrote:


fact!



The “halls of government” also have images of other things, Confucius is one example. Does that make us a Confucianism nation too?



Lookbeyond wrote:

In God we Trust is simply a right given to all who so choose to believe in God.....there is no religious persuasion forced down our throats today.



And we are trying to keep it that way.



Lookbeyond wrote:

You need to visit some of the European Countries where such is the case.....you can't be employed in Denmark by the State, if you do not belong to the Lutheran Church. Italy and Spain have been oppressive to their people because of Catholicism.....The early Founding Fathers were under the influences of these oppressive governments and sought freedom from "forced religion" upon them!



Because other countries force religion on their citizens doesn’t mean we shouldn't remain vigilant in our country to protect the religious freedoms of all our citizens.



Lookbeyond wrote:

Hence, we have a Constitution that protects our rights to worship how, where and what we choose! And if someone wants to celebrate Christmas....that is their Constitutional right....and they can do it where and when they choose if they do it peaceably!



Who said anything about taking Christmas away?????

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6 years ago  ::  Dec 22, 2008 - 4:12PM #19
mountain_man
Posts: 39,105
[QUOTE=Lookbeyond;972378]..No where does it mention freedom of or from religion.....that is your desire! This has always been a Christian Nation since it's very beginning.....our government and laws were founded on Christian principles....


The United States of America has never been a so called "christian nation." That is a fact. The USA has always had a SECULAR government.

the Ten Commandments had a great influence in sculpturing our laws!


Those "commandments" have had no influence on our government. In fact, it's the exact opposite.

......The early Founding Fathers were under the influences of these oppressive governments and sought freedom from "forced religion" upon them! Hence, we have a Constitution that protects our rights to worship how, where and what we choose! And if someone wants to celebrate Christmas....that is their Constitutional right....and they can do it where and when they choose if they do it peaceably![/QUOTE]
That's right. That Constitution also prevents the government from getting involved in any religion. You do not have a "constitutional right" to put your religion on government property. License plates are government property.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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6 years ago  ::  Dec 22, 2008 - 4:50PM #20
Summer813
Posts: 325
[QUOTE=EyesoftheWorld;972133][QUOTE=TPaine]What a novel idea! Does that mean you don't need a deity to act in a civilized manner?[/QUOTE]
If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814[/QUOTE]
Exactly. I'm with TJ and TP: morality, virtue and the doing of good are perfectly capable of existing in complete independence from any deities or religion.
Shared pain is lessened, shared joy increased. Thus do we refute entropy. - Mike Callahan, Callahan's Crosstime Saloon
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