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Switch to Forum Live View Did Jesus take God's wrath?
7 years ago  ::  Feb 13, 2008 - 9:46PM #1
smallson
Posts: 127
Recently I heard Brad Jersak teach on the cross.He said that Jesus didn't take God's wrath or punishment on the cross.Rather our sin punished him and his love and mercy (through his shed blood) won.It really flips the table on something I believed for years, without even dawning on me to question it.I had never thought to consider it from the other perspective.

He went to Isaiah 53  and pointed out that it sais "we considerd him stricken by God", as opposed to saying "He was stricken by God".He also looked at another portion of Isaiah 53 that's suppost to be a mistranslation of the original (the part about the Lord being pleased to crush Him).In the New Testament he pointed out that it never sais God punished Jesus, but rather "You crucified him!"

According to him, the idea that Jesus took God's wrath on the cross is a recent teaching and was not taught by the church fathers.The church fathers didn't always get things right, but this other perspective actualy makes alot of sense.The ultimate test is the scriptures and the light it shines on the subject.Any thoughts? Which view on the cross do you believe to be soundly biblical?

If there is an official Vineyard perspective on this specific topic, that would also be interesting to know.
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7 years ago  ::  Feb 16, 2008 - 4:01PM #2
butterflynews11
Posts: 545
"If there is an official Vineyard perspective on this specific topic, that would also be interesting to know."

I'll find out, unless somebody else beats me to it.

The first thing that comes to mind concerning the Cross itself is that it reconciles us to God. Jesus substituted himself in what we deserved since God is 'Holy' and humans are not. Just one tiny sin committed cannot co-exist with God since any sin is darkness. And God is Light, Pure, i.e. Holy. So one little sin deems one unholy. But Jesus lived a pure life which qualified him to die on the Cross in our stead since none of us can live a perfect life. But when we placed our trust in Jesus, he qualified us as holy, and therefore, reconciled us to the Father, even though we still sin. Isn't that awesome?! Thank you, Lord!
The Cross also made Jesus Victorious over the devil for us since he died without giving in to sin. All of us sin before we die. But since we've been saved, we've been forgiven of ALL our sins,, past, present and future. Therefore, we're already clean (John 15:3 - Jesus said this before he went to the Cross to his 'disciples'. And the main point that Jesus was making to his disciples here [in context] was to 'abide' in him so that they could grow in him. This is the same message that was taught to the disciples as we read in the epistles, especially by the Apostle Paul, which took place after Jesus' death and resurrection)

These are just some of my thoughts about the Cross. But concerning the crux of your question, I'll look at some of the 'proof texts' and check the original meaning of the words.
What were the verse(s) that Brad Jersak used to show his pov? I'm curious. Not saying that he's offbase, but whole doctrines are built around just one verse.

God Bless!
Love,
Yvette
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7 years ago  ::  Feb 16, 2008 - 4:20PM #3
butterflynews11
Posts: 545
Ok, you already provided a couple of verses that he uses for his pov. Sorry about that!
Now I'm curious as to what verses are used to show that Jesus took God's wrath.
I've heard that too - that he took our punishment because he was our sin substitute, or else we'd all end up in hell, i.e. deserving of God's wrath since he's also a God of justice.
That's the teaching I've heard over the years from various Christians, too, but I can't remember specifically any teachings about that at the Vineyard. Perhaps we had a teaching(s) at church or kinship, but it escapes me at the moment.

I'll read up from my concordance on the Cross and get some references, plus get the official statement later. (again, if somebody else doesn't get to it before I do)
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7 years ago  ::  Feb 16, 2008 - 5:14PM #4
butterflynews11
Posts: 545
I'm back! This is the Vineyard Theological and Philosophical Statement of Faith:

http://www.vineyardusa.org/about/beliefs.aspx

Click on the 'Downloadable Statements of Faith brochure' and then read #6. Approximately midway, it reads: 'He (Jesus) took God's judgment for sin which we deserve as law-breakers. (92)

Rom. 1:18, 32; 2:12
2 Thess. 1:6-10

This is basically what I said. But the passages don't actually specify that Jesus took God's wrath. Instead, it says that we were deserving of punishment. So it seems that since Jesus was our substitute on the Cross, he was punished by God in our stead, meaning, taking on God's wrath for us.
That's the conclusion of the interpretation on the subject, to me. A basic belief of Christianity.
Seems to be a philosophical statement.

I cringed at the word 'wrath' at the outset. It's pretty harsh and makes God out to be nothing but an angry God who's out to get us, and quite frankly, has turned many people off. He's a God of justice, but he's ultimately the God of Love who wants to save his creation because he's perfect and we're not and he wants us to be like him.. the two greatest commandments that Jesus wants to instill in us, to Love God and neighbor as ourselves. That means to love others more than ourselves since we humans are basically selfish. And Jesus taught his disciples about selflessness. Again, abiding in him who gave everything up; to grow and be more like him which is a reflection of God who wants us.

There have been too many teachings on hellfire and brimstone in the body of Christ over the years, frankly. I think that's not the perspective of God's message. Since God is Love, he gives us Grace and forgives us (But with that Grace comes consequences because of our own doing or just because sin is still in the world). But on the flip side, some churches' message is on cheap Grace where anything goes.
I believe we need more teachings on holiness without the scare tactics of hell nor the teachings without the subject of accountability, either.

See ya later!
Love,
Yvette
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6 years ago  ::  May 06, 2008 - 8:15AM #5
samie
Posts: 5,575
There have been too many teachings on hellfire and brimstone in the body of Christ over the years, frankly. I think that's not the perspective of God's message. Since God is Love, he gives us Grace and forgives us (But with that Grace comes consequences because of our own doing or just because sin is still in the world). But on the flip side, some churches' message is on cheap Grace where anything goes.
I believe we need more teachings on holiness without the scare tactics of hell nor the teachings without the subject of accountability, either.

See ya later!
Love,
Yvette[/quote]

I couldn't agree with you more.  Ya know, now that I think about it, our paster has not preached on Hell once since we've been going to our church.  It's all about how much God loves us and how he wants us to be more like Him. I'm sure he will sometime but the subject just has never come up, yet. I think we all need to be reminded, at some point, that their is a punishment for those who don't believe in our Lord Jesus Christ, but not everyday.:)  love ya, samie
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6 years ago  ::  May 07, 2008 - 10:43PM #6
greenponder
Posts: 1,395
I just looked in a concordance and found that all but two of the references to hell in the Bible were made by Jesus. I don't think that hell and judgment should be over-emphasized in preaching, but there is not much danger of that in most churches these days. God is not only love. He is also righteous, just and holy. I think people need to know what they are being saved from and I haven't heard much about that lately.
Jonathan Edwards' famous sermon "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" is often thought of as the epitome of fire and brimstone style. I hadn't read it since high school so I thought I'd check it out. While it does paint a vivid picture of hell, it is much more about the grace of God.
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6 years ago  ::  May 07, 2008 - 11:40PM #7
butterflynews11
Posts: 545
Hi and welcome, Greenponder!
Thanks for your input! You bring up some really good points. And Jonathan Edwards' sermon is no-holds-bar, that's for sure. It's really in your face, and that's one of the things that turns people off to Christianity.
Hell is a real place and does tend to get overemphazied in some churches which can cause people to become too legalistic because they then tend to 'do' instead of resting in God's Grace. Otoh, however, if not enough sermons or teachings are taught, cheap Grace can abound. But churches in the same vein as the Vineyard, regarding Jesus' teaching, emphasize evangelism to snatch people out of satan's grip. And Vineyard teaches on 'power evangelism' in demonstration and power of the Spirit to bring people to Christ.
Each local congregation has a little different way of doing things, though, and there may be pastors who teach more on Hell than others.


Smallson,
I said that God punished Jesus in our stead, but what do you think? Was it God who punished Jesus while He (Jesus) was on the Cross or was satan to blame since Jesus took upon himself the sin of the world.
There are different aspects to the Crucifixion. Victory happened at Calvary mostly, I whole-heartedly believe!


Samie,
What do you think happened during the Crucifixion?

Well, have a great one Everyone!

With Love,
Yvette
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6 years ago  ::  May 13, 2008 - 9:59PM #8
smallson
Posts: 127
[QUOTE=butterflynews11;485616]

Smallson,
I said that God punished Jesus in our stead, but what do you think? Was it God who punished Jesus while He (Jesus) was on the Cross or was satan to blame since Jesus took upon himself the sin of the world.
There are different aspects to the Crucifixion. Victory happened at Calvary mostly, I whole-heartedly believe!

[/QUOTE]

That's what I believed for years, but I'm having strong doubts that this is the proper interpretation of scripture.

As far as I can see, the whole basis of the doctrine is on Isaiah 53--especialy verses4, 6, and 10:

Verse 4:

Surely he has borne our sufferings, and carried our sorrows; yet we considered him stricken, and struck down by God, and afflicted.

Verse 6:

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, each of us, to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Verse 10:

Yet the Lord was willing to crush him, and he made him suffer.Although you make his soul an offering for sin, and he will see his offspring, and he will prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will triumph in his hand.

(All verses from the Dead Sea Scrolls Bible)

If one reads the entire chapter of Isaiah 53, one can certainly get the impression that God indeed did punish Jesus on the cross.That's why most Evangelicals, be they charismatic, non-charismatic, Vineyard, Pentecostal, etc, believe this.My own pastor has taught it himself (I remember him bringing it up last Easter time).

Yet in the gospels and throughout the New Testament, I can't remember any verses that give this impression.Infact the overall picture I see in the bible is that man expressed his wrath towards Christ, and mans ultimate wrath was to whip him , crucify him on a cross and condemn him to death.

Hear are some questions to ponder on the punishment/wrath put on Jesus in his time of trial:

1. How was Jesus punished?
2.When we read the gospels, who is delivering these punishments?
3.How do we reconcile what we find in the gospel with some of what is said in Isaiah 53?

Perhaps what the writer of Isaiah 53 was trying to say in the original language, was that God was willing to have Christ punished for our sin.Not that God was punishing Christ himself.Was it God who crucified Christ (a brutal form of punishment) or was it man who crucified Christ--an act that God allowed to save us and show us his love?
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6 years ago  ::  May 13, 2008 - 9:59PM #9
smallson
Posts: 127
[QUOTE=butterflynews11;485616]

Smallson,
I said that God punished Jesus in our stead, but what do you think? Was it God who punished Jesus while He (Jesus) was on the Cross or was satan to blame since Jesus took upon himself the sin of the world.
There are different aspects to the Crucifixion. Victory happened at Calvary mostly, I whole-heartedly believe!

[/QUOTE]

That's what I believed for years, but I'm having strong doubts that this is the proper interpretation of scripture.

As far as I can see, the whole basis of the doctrine is on Isaiah 53--especialy verses4, 6, and 10:

Verse 4:

Surely he has borne our sufferings, and carried our sorrows; yet we considered him stricken, and struck down by God, and afflicted.

Verse 6:

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, each of us, to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Verse 10:

Yet the Lord was willing to crush him, and he made him suffer.Although you make his soul an offering for sin, and he will see his offspring, and he will prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will triumph in his hand.

(All verses from the Dead Sea Scrolls Bible)

If one reads the entire chapter of Isaiah 53, one can certainly get the impression that God indeed did punish Jesus on the cross.That's why most Evangelicals, be they charismatic, non-charismatic, Vineyard, Pentecostal, etc, believe this.My own pastor has taught it himself (I remember him bringing it up last Easter time).

Yet in the gospels and throughout the New Testament, I can't remember any verses that give this impression.Infact the overall picture I see in the bible is that man expressed his wrath towards Christ, and mans ultimate wrath was to whip him , crucify him on a cross and condemn him to death.

Hear are some questions to ponder on the punishment/wrath put on Jesus in his time of trial:

1. How was Jesus punished?
2.When we read the gospels, who is delivering these punishments?
3.How do we reconcile what we find in the gospel with some of what is said in Isaiah 53?

Perhaps what the writer of Isaiah 53 was trying to say in the original language, was that God was willing to have Christ punished for our sin.Not that God was punishing Christ himself.Was it God who crucified Christ (a brutal form of punishment) or was it man who crucified Christ--an act that God allowed to save us and show us his love?
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6 years ago  ::  May 14, 2008 - 8:15PM #10
greenponder
Posts: 1,395
In 1 Peter 2:23 it says that Jesus “entrusted himself to him who judges justly.” This is in keeping with the doctrine of the substitutionary nature of the atonement. God the Father as the judge who judges justly pronounced the sentence for the punishment of sin. The people who crucified Jesus were just carrying out the sentence but it is our sins that pounded the nails into His hands and feet.
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