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9 years ago  ::  Sep 03, 2008 - 4:44PM #1
EyesoftheWorld
Posts: 1,708
In my reading this past long weekend, which was heavily Taoist due to my obtaining of the Mitchell translation of the Tao te Ching via this thread and through a most fortuitous coincidence (I'm getting used to having those more and more now), I read that "teh" is almost or even as important as "Tao".

So I'd really appreciate it if anyone would be so kind as to share their understanding of what "teh" is?

I am a little unprepared because I don't have the texts from this weekend in front of me to share, but I plan on having it for you all tomorrow.

Thanks in advance.

take care
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9 years ago  ::  Sep 04, 2008 - 11:06AM #2
EyesoftheWorld
Posts: 1,708
Alrighty, here's some of what I happened upon.

"The Tao is One, and the Teh but a phase thereof."
"The Tao parallels Pleroma, Shiva, Jod. The Teh - Logos, Sakti, He." (I don't really understand those contrasts!)
"The Tao is the Emptiness of Space. The Teh is the immortal enemy of the Tao; its feminine aspect. Heaven and Earth issued from her Gate."

I'm trying to not picture Tao/Teh as Yin/Yang b/c I don't think that's correct.

I do think it's ironic how, in another thread I posted a warning about how Taoism is to the Tao Teh Ching what Christianity is to the teachings of Jesus. It seems discussing Teh could be beyond the scope of the Tao Teh Ching, but I'd like to know more about this.

Thanks
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9 years ago  ::  Sep 04, 2008 - 1:37PM #3
koala972
Posts: 879
te means 'virtue' or sometimes I say 'ideal' - but really to use a metaphor I think you posted somewhere else it is like a finger pointing.  Danger as you pointed out if you point your finger at the tao you might get lost in the pointing :)
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9 years ago  ::  Sep 05, 2008 - 10:45AM #4
EyesoftheWorld
Posts: 1,708
Hi koala. Thanks for your reply!
I'm glad I've posted something, you read it, and have taken something away from that experience!
I get the vibe that you mean the action of pointing affects that which I'm pointing at or the pointing will be what I or others will see. Are either of those correct? If so, which one and if not, please elaborate!

Your post also made me think of an important issue that I need clarification on.
Is "te" the same as "teh"?
And, if they are not the same is Lao-Tze's book the "Tao Te Ching": or the "Tao Teh Ching"?

I remember the book "The Te of Piglet" but I did not read the whole thing. A friend of mine did. I read the "Tao of Pooh", which got me into Taoism.
Have you read "The Te of Piglet"?
To this day, I share with people the story contained therein of the old man and son whose horse runs away and comes back with ten horses and the son tries to ride one and breaks his leg and then cannot go off to war because he's not "able-bodied" and all the while the old man is just going with the flow while the neighbors keep throwing consolation and celebration parites for them.
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9 years ago  ::  Sep 05, 2008 - 2:23PM #5
Sakhaiva
Posts: 942
Before I get ready to dive into this thread      (and my understanding that 'te' and 'teh' are the same; the spelling has to do with transliterational issues.)     I was wondering if anyone has anyone read this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Lao-Tzu-Translati … 0345370996
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9 years ago  ::  Sep 06, 2008 - 1:16AM #6
koala972
Posts: 879
[QUOTE=EyesoftheWorld;743078]Hi koala. Thanks for your reply!
I'm glad I've posted something, you read it, and have taken something away from that experience!
I get the vibe that you mean the action of pointing affects that which I'm pointing at or the pointing will be what I or others will see. Are either of those correct? If so, which one and if not, please elaborate!



I was thinking in terms of when you point it is harder than you think not to look at the finger.  I don't think in terms of quantum physics other than to note that things aren't as predictable as I'm told lol  but I think there is also a book called 'the tao of physics' that might explore the relationship of taoist teaching to quantum physics as well.  I never really read it though...


Your post also made me think of an important issue that I need clarification on.
Is "te" the same as "teh"?
And, if they are not the same is Lao-Tze's book the "Tao Te Ching": or the "Tao Teh Ching"?



bear in mind that when the Tao Te Ching was written, it was written with chinese ideograms.  There is a certain amount of leeway involved in translating the associated sounds to english, or so I'm told.  Like for example I've seen Lao Tze also spelled as Lao Tzu :)


I remember the book "The Te of Piglet" but I did not read the whole thing. A friend of mine did. I read the "Tao of Pooh", which got me into Taoism.
Have you read "The Te of Piglet"?


no not really. I did read the tao of pooh too and liked it.


To this day, I share with people the story contained therein of the old man and son whose horse runs away and comes back with ten horses and the son tries to ride one and breaks his leg and then cannot go off to war because he's not "able-bodied" and all the while the old man is just going with the flow while the neighbors keep throwing consolation and celebration parites for them.[/QUOTE]

have you ever heard of Chuang Tzu?  His book is a few hundred years after Lao Tze, and is a really nice humourous romp through Taoism.  It has got lots of those kinds of stories and I think he is very eloquent.

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9 years ago  ::  Sep 06, 2008 - 1:18AM #7
koala972
Posts: 879
[QUOTE=sakhaiva;743793]Before I get ready to dive into this thread      (and my understanding that 'te' and 'teh' are the same; the spelling has to do with transliterational issues.)     I was wondering if anyone has anyone read this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Lao-Tzu-Translati … 0345370996[/QUOTE]

no but it looks like a slant on things that might be interesting.  Have you read it?  How does it compare to the older translations?
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9 years ago  ::  Sep 06, 2008 - 2:07PM #8
EyesoftheWorld
Posts: 1,708
I have not read "The Tao of Physics" but I wouldn't be surprised if it contained the Heisenberg Principle of Uncertainty.
Physicists realized they could not accurately gauge both the location and speed of a particle. They can nail one down, but never both. I don't think this is a function of the limitations of equipment either.
They also realized that anyone observing the "behavior" of a particle or observing the results of certain experiments, for example, actually change or influence the behavior of the particle or the results. I don't know if I can explain really why or how. I've heard about a single electron appearing to be in two places at the same time, but somehow that "fact" was quite dependent upon the "fact" someone was trying to find out where it was at that time.
There is a famous experiment called "Schroedinger's Cat" which involved a complex theoretical experiment involving a cat in a box with a container of poisonous gas. The gas would be released into the box with the cat if a small bit of radioactive material, which was serving as a seal or lock mechanism, decayed enough. I presume you've heard of "half-life"? It's the amount of time it takes any amount of a radioactive substance to decay and "shrink" by half.
So with this experiment, although you could do the math and figure out how long it woud take for the radioactive material to decay enough to release the gas (since you would know how much material was involved and you'd know what radioactive substance you were dealing with, so you'd know its half-life), the only way you could really know for sure whether the cat had been poisoned or not is to open the box. though I guess if you heard it meow you could assume it was alive, but let's say it is a very quiet cat for the sake of scientific clinical professionalism.
The half-life figure is really only a ratio or mean derived from observation. It is a function of past (historical) recordings and is more a guideline than a set in stone clockwork function. Half-life is a "tendency" scientists have established through averaging out the results of many observations.
Likewise, particles have tendencies but don't behave exactly the same way every time even when conditions seem to be identical.
To humans this never mattered. This stuff goes on at such a microscopic level that the qualities of matter are not affected to any degree that manifests in any noticeable way. So, this uncertainty was never realized until humans created the instruments with which to even notice it. Since they notice it and make note of the unpredictability of particles, their observing in a sense creates the uncertainty. They could do the old "tendency" move like with half-life, but that is really only a prediction that will get you through the night because the range of variation never results in any diiference unless you're watching very very closely and the only difference is the variation so it's doesn't matter unless the fact it's happening keeps you up at night and you just have to look into the microscope and see for yourself what a particle is doing.
But watching that particle that particular time will most likely result in another record of a particle behaving not quite the way you'd have predicted w/r/t that kind of particle's "tendency". Your observation itself and indeed all of those observations which contribute to the concept of a particle's "tendency" are responsible for human even being aware that particles did not behave as reliably and consistently as people had thought before they could look to see for themselves. I guess this in an example of "ignorance is bliss".
Take care.
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9 years ago  ::  Sep 06, 2008 - 4:02PM #9
koala972
Posts: 879
thanks!  I knew a lot of that, but some of it was new material for me :)
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9 years ago  ::  Sep 06, 2008 - 4:02PM #10
koala972
Posts: 879
thanks!  I knew a lot of that, but some of it was new material for me :)
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