I would like to present some material and then ask a question.
The following is the first paragraph of an article by Carrie Schroder:
"Nazi Germany was a horrible place for small denominational churches because there was no religious liberty. One small denomination that survived was the Seventh-day Adventist denomination. When Adolf Hitler rose to power in Germany, the German Seventh-day Adventist denomination (hereafter referred to as Adventists) believed it was time for a strong leader in Germany. Hitler seemed to be the best candidate because of 'his personal dedication and his abstinence from tea, coffee, alcohol and meat, practices shared by the Adventists, [therefore] he was welcomed as a savior.' (from the book The Nazi State and the New Religions: Five Case Studies in Non-Conformity by Christine E. King) I hope to point out, because of the willingness to compromise the decent of the German Adventist denomination from the moral issues listed below, to where they ended at the end of World War II. They ended in compromise, loss of personal integrity, and denominational integrity, splitting of the denomination and were racially damaged as a Christian organization because they were unable to hold fast to the tenets of their beliefs. They tied the denomination to the German State giving up their religious freedom in attempt to survive through compromises. This position of compromise brought shame upon the German denomination as well as the worldwide denomination after the end of World War II."
Let's see what The Adventist Morning Watch Calendar of December, 1939, had to say about the great Adolph Hitler:
"Trust in his people has given the Fuhrer the strength to carry through the fight for freedom and honour of Germany. The unshakable faith of Adolf Hitler allowed him to do great deeds, which decorate him today before the whole world. Selflesslyand faithfully he has struggled for his people; courageously and proudly he has defended the honour of his nation. In Christian humility, at important times when he could celebrate with his people, he gave God in Heaven the honour and recognized his dependence upon God's blessings. This humility has made him great, and this greatness was the source of blessing, from which he always gave for his people. Only very few statesmen stand so brilliantly in the sun of a blessed life, and are so praised by their own people as our Fuhrer. He has sacrificed much in the years of his struggle and has thought little about himself in the difficult work for his people. We compare the unnumbered words, which he has issued to the people from a warm heart, with seeds which have ripened and now carry wonderful fruit."
And now this, from the May 2005 issue of the German publication Adventist Echo:
"Noting the sixtieth anniversary of the end of WWII, Seventh-day Adventist church leaders in Germany and Austria have released a declaration saying they "deeply regret" any participation in or support of Nazi activities during the war. The church bodies "honestly confess" a failure in "following our Lord" by not protecting Jews, and others, from that era's genocide, widely known as the Holocaust. Millions of people perished from war atrocities, including more than 6 million Jews who were exterminated in Nazy persecutions during the 12-year period of 1933 to 1945."
From the Adventist Review:
"We deeply regret that the character of National Socialist dictatorship had not been realized in time and distinctly enough, and the ungodly nature of [Nazi] ideology had not clearly been identified," the statement, as translated from German, reads. The church says it also regrets "that in some of our publications . . . there were found articles glorifying Adolf Hitler and agreeing with the ideology of anti-Semitism in a way that is unbelievable from today's [perspective]."
Church leaders also expressed regret that "our peoples became associated with racial fanaticism destroying the lives and freedom of 6 million Jews and representatives of minorities in all of Europe" and "that many Seventh-day Adventists did not share the need and suffering of their Jewish fellow-citizens."
A paramount regret, the statement indicated, was that German and Austrian Adventist congregations "excluded, separated and left [church members who were] . . . of Jewish origin to themselves so that they were delivered to imprisonment, exile or death."
Under various racial decrees, some Adventist congregations expelled members of Jewish heritage. One, Max-Israel Munk, was placed in two concentration camps by the Nazis and survived and returned to his church after the war. He said he did not wish to act toward his congregation in the way in which he had been treated, according to Daniel Heinz, a church archivist at Friedensau Adventist University who has studied Adventist activities during the National Socialist era.
This apology came forty years later. One of the reasons given was that the "nature" of the Nazi regime was not been "clearly identified" back then. Yet, the apology does not come until forty years after the nature of that regime was clearly identified.
For a little more information on the Seventh-day Adventist support of and participation in Adolph Hitler's Nazi regime, here's a brief video:
It seems that one of the reasons Seventh-day Adventists in Germany and Austria were so supportive of Adolph Hitler was that he abstained from tea, coffee, alcohol, and meat. He was one of the greatest mass-murderers we have ever known, but because he seemed to agree with Ellen G. White's "God-given" health message, Seventh-day Adventists gave him their devotion and praise. In light of this, how can Seventh-day Adventists today -- particularly given all the available evidence of her literary copying and lies and hypocrisy -- honestly expect anyone to take seriously their claim that Ellen G. White was a prophet of God?
With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. -- Steve Weinberg
[QUOTE=RayGarton;707422]I would like to present some material and then ask a question.
The following is the first paragraph of an article by Carrie Schroder:
"Nazi Germany was a horrible place for small denominational churches because there was no religious liberty. One small denomination that survived was the Seventh-day Adventist denomination. When Adolf Hitler rose to power in Germany, the German Seventh-day Adventist denomination (hereafter referred to as Adventists) believed it was time for a strong leader in Germany. Hitler seemed to be the best candidate because of 'his personal dedication and his abstinence from tea, coffee, alcohol and meat, practices shared by the Adventists, [therefore] he was welcomed as a savior.' (from the book The Nazi State and the New Religions: Five Case Studies in Non-Conformity by Christine E. King) I hope to point out, because of the willingness to compromise the decent of the German Adventist denomination from the moral issues listed below, to where they ended at the end of World War II. They ended in compromise, loss of personal integrity, and denominational integrity, splitting of the denomination and were racially damaged as a Christian organization because they were unable to hold fast to the tenets of their beliefs. They tied the denomination to the German State giving up their religious freedom in attempt to survive through compromises. This position of compromise brought shame upon the German denomination as well as the worldwide denomination after the end of World War II."
Let's see what The Adventist Morning Watch Calendar of December, 1939, had to say about the great Adolph Hitler:
"Trust in his people has given the Fuhrer the strength to carry through the fight for freedom and honour of Germany. The unshakable faith of Adolf Hitler allowed him to do great deeds, which decorate him today before the whole world. Selflesslyand faithfully he has struggled for his people; courageously and proudly he has defended the honour of his nation. In Christian humility, at important times when he could celebrate with his people, he gave God in Heaven the honour and recognized his dependence upon God's blessings. This humility has made him great, and this greatness was the source of blessing, from which he always gave for his people. Only very few statesmen stand so brilliantly in the sun of a blessed life, and are so praised by their own people as our Fuhrer. He has sacrificed much in the years of his struggle and has thought little about himself in the difficult work for his people. We compare the unnumbered words, which he has issued to the people from a warm heart, with seeds which have ripened and now carry wonderful fruit."
And now this, from the May 2005 issue of the German publication Adventist Echo:
"Noting the sixtieth anniversary of the end of WWII, Seventh-day Adventist church leaders in Germany and Austria have released a declaration saying they "deeply regret" any participation in or support of Nazi activities during the war. The church bodies "honestly confess" a failure in "following our Lord" by not protecting Jews, and others, from that era's genocide, widely known as the Holocaust. Millions of people perished from war atrocities, including more than 6 million Jews who were exterminated in Nazy persecutions during the 12-year period of 1933 to 1945."
From the Adventist Review:
"We deeply regret that the character of National Socialist dictatorship had not been realized in time and distinctly enough, and the ungodly nature of [Nazi] ideology had not clearly been identified," the statement, as translated from German, reads. The church says it also regrets "that in some of our publications . . . there were found articles glorifying Adolf Hitler and agreeing with the ideology of anti-Semitism in a way that is unbelievable from today's [perspective]."
Church leaders also expressed regret that "our peoples became associated with racial fanaticism destroying the lives and freedom of 6 million Jews and representatives of minorities in all of Europe" and "that many Seventh-day Adventists did not share the need and suffering of their Jewish fellow-citizens."
A paramount regret, the statement indicated, was that German and Austrian Adventist congregations "excluded, separated and left [church members who were] . . . of Jewish origin to themselves so that they were delivered to imprisonment, exile or death."
Under various racial decrees, some Adventist congregations expelled members of Jewish heritage. One, Max-Israel Munk, was placed in two concentration camps by the Nazis and survived and returned to his church after the war. He said he did not wish to act toward his congregation in the way in which he had been treated, according to Daniel Heinz, a church archivist at Friedensau Adventist University who has studied Adventist activities during the National Socialist era.
This apology came forty years later. One of the reasons given was that the "nature" of the Nazi regime was not been "clearly identified" back then. Yet, the apology does not come until forty years after the nature of that regime was clearly identified.
For a little more information on the Seventh-day Adventist support of and participation in Adolph Hitler's Nazi regime, here's a brief video:
It seems that one of the reasons Seventh-day Adventists in Germany and Austria were so supportive of Adolph Hitler was that he abstained from tea, coffee, alcohol, and meat. He was one of the greatest mass-murderers we have ever known, but because he seemed to agree with Ellen G. White's "God-given" health message, Seventh-day Adventists gave him their devotion and praise. In light of this, how can Seventh-day Adventists today -- particularly given all the available evidence of her literary copying and lies and hypocrisy -- honestly expect anyone to take seriously their claim that Ellen G. White was a prophet of God?[/QUOTE]
Ray - This is powerful stuff ! I am sorry to say that I didn't know that the SDA church in Germany were toadies for hitler.
I did know that the many German Jw's were tossed into concentration camps, and a few were killed
See what happens if you don't "have the truth' ?
I have pointed out in this forum before, three verses in the Bible, which identify as evil those who make commands for others about food and drink.....................................................................as does EGW, perhaps the mad paperhanger was familiar with her edicts ?
Well, hitler never passed the dreaded "sunday law" boo boooo, so can't you let him slide on genocide, rape, and all the rest ?
Watch the number of views you get on this post. I'll bet it will be very low, they DO NOT WANT TO KNOW, they might be forced to think in a direction that leads them to conclusions that, above all, THEY DO NOT WANT TO REACH.
Adventism, and naziism, hand in hand, working together for the common goal............................. how wretched.
I seriously doubt my question will be answered, Clint. A lot of people don't know about the Adventist participation in the Nazi regime, or the praise German Adventists heaped on Hiter. I think it bears noting that President Eisenhower and a lot of Jewish leaders praised someone who did stand up to the Nazis, someone who saved nearly nine hundred thousand Jews during that time -- Pope Pius XII. So the pope -- who, along with the Catholic church, is identified by Seventh-day Adventists as the Beast -- was saving the lives of persecuted Jews while the "remnant church" was claiming Hiter to be a man led by God and throwing Adventist people of Jewish heritage -- their own people -- into the hands of the Nazis. And yet Adventists believe that non-Adventist friends and loved ones will turn on them in the Last Days after the "Sunday law" has been put into effect, and will turn them over to the "Sunday-keepers" so they can be imprisoned, tortured, and executed for observing the Saturday Sabbath. The irony is dizzying.
With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. -- Steve Weinberg
Sure, Ave, a lot of people were duped by Hitler. This information is relevant, though, because at the heart of Adventist theology is the hatred of the Catholic church. They point to the Dark Ages, to the Inquisition, and recite a litany of horrors committed by, as they love to spittingly call it, "the papacy." Their interpretation of Revelation -- which, of course, comes from their "prophet" Ellen G. White -- has the Catholic church and all the "Sunday-keepers" hunting down and killing Seventh-day Adventists in the last days because they observe the Saturday Sabbath. The hatred of catholicism found at the core of Seventh-day Adventism is unparalleled in modern-day religions. It is a theology that is based on anti-Catholic hatred. But it's the "remnant church"! And Ellen G. White is the "lesser light"! And they have the "Truth"! And they are Christians, even though they've denied the completion of Christ's work! And if you say otherwise -- then you hate Adventists! If you point out that they hate Catholics, they'll say, "Well, you hate, too!" This information about the Nazi Adventists clearly points out their institutional hypocrisy, blindness, and circular "reasoning." Bring it up and they'll say, "But Catholics did the same thing!" So ... that makes it okay?
Of course, no one is saying that Adventism supports Nazis today -- but they certainly jumped on the swastika-waving bandwagon back then! And if they can be fooled so easily by one of the greatest mass murderers in modern history, don't people have the right to point out that maybe they've been fooled by their own "prophet," Ellen G. White, and the men in the early church who supported and covered for her? Don't people have the right to question their insistence that Ellen G. White was a "prophet" and that all the evidence to the contrary is a lie? Don't people have the right to be very doubtful when Adventists claim that the people who, after years of careful research and study, have provided evidence that Ellen White was a plagiarist, liar, and fraud, are all motivated by anger and hatred and bitterness toward Adventism and should be rejected entirely? Of course people have the right to ask those questions and raise those doubts. But the Adventists won't sit still for that. They'll be too busy trying to direct your attention elsewhere -- most likely to the evils of the Catholic church, or to the bad behavior of other people, which apparently justifies their own. Or they'll be too busy accusing you of hating them simply because you brought up some truth. No direct, simple answers, no reasoning, no logic, no discussion, no mature and rational debate -- only finger-pointing and evasion and tantrums. And if you don't believe me, read the threads on this board! Obviously some Adventists have acknowledged and expressed regret for the horrible things done in Nazi Germany -- even though it took them forty years to do it. But now that they've done that, they want us to completely forget all about it and never, ever, ever mention it again. And I think we should do that -- as soon as Seventh-day Adventism removes from its theology all the hatred toward the Catholic church.
That, of course, will never happen.
With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. -- Steve Weinberg
It should be pointed out that pretty much everybody shares the blame... and shame for what happened during the Nazi regime. As you have helped show.. the SDA's have their share of blame as well.
And for any religious denomination to make as one of its main platforms a dislike of others, only reflects badly on those who participate in it. It was said on this forum that the "bad guys" are the ones who believe in good guys and bad guys. Or another way to say it.... We are who we are because we don't like who you are. Very sad.
Thanks for this thread Ray, I think it's a very important one.
I would like to present some material and then ask a question.....
It seems that one of the reasons Seventh-day Adventists in Germany and Austria were so supportive of Adolph Hitler was that he abstained from tea, coffee, alcohol, and meat. He was one of the greatest mass-murderers we have ever known, but because he seemed to agree with Ellen G. White's "God-given" health message, Seventh-day Adventists gave him their devotion and praise. In light of this, how can Seventh-day Adventists today -- particularly given all the available evidence of her literary copying and lies and hypocrisy -- honestly expect anyone to take seriously their claim that Ellen G. White was a prophet of God?
Ray, This is another of the same variety of claims which are rooted in themes already in progress... plagiarism and criticism of EGW----and should have been posted under those threads.
2. those SDA believers in that article were not following any orders from the Official SDA Church, but had followed their own inclinations---just as the article stated.
3. Those believers could not have known the ultimate anti-humanitarian plans which Hitler had at the beginning of his dictatorship.
4. Hitler was not a SDA, but did hold some "Christian beliefs". Some of the "abstaining from tea, coffee, alcohol, and meat." in part or whole can be seen in many "faiths".
5. Who is Carrie Schroder? What denominational affiliation? Opinions are given, but ., How true are the articles from which those opinions are concluded? Are the articles excerpts true to context?
6.Yes, the SDA believers of that region do acknowledge the errors of their members of that day. and repent for them and that regions not addressing the issues earlier. But that is what Repentance is all about-------Daniel 9 gives an example of that action.
7.EGW had been dead for 24 years, and was not involved in any of Hitler's decisions or opinions. And attempting to associate any of her writings with Hitler's action is grasping at straws.
8. I read the entire article and it appears that the True SDA Church and the "Reformed SDA church" have been exchanged in that article. There is still a "Reformed SDA Church" which had its beginnings in Germany and whose teachings are a reflection of those of this article.
The time is fast approaching when "True believers" will again stand True to The Principles of GOD or with the enemy. No Compromise!!! A Daniel and his three companions or a Judas.
However, #6 Is appropriate even if late. even doing so for that "Splint group".
Peace, Sincerly. As long as sin is practiced, one will search for a means to validate the continuing therein. ANON
The greatest want of the world is the want of men--men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.---- ANON (Ellen G. White. 1882)
[QUOTE=sincerly;708035]Ray, This is another of the same variety of claims which are rooted in themes already in progress... plagiarism and criticism of EGW----and should have been posted under those threads.
2. those SDA believers in that article were not following any orders from the Official SDA Church, but had followed their own inclinations---just as the article stated.
3. Those believers could not have known the ultimate anti-humanitarian plans which Hitler had at the beginning of his dictatorship.
4. Hitler was not a SDA, but did hold some "Christian beliefs". Some of the "abstaining from tea, coffee, alcohol, and meat." in part or whole can be seen in many "faiths".
5. Who is Carrie Schroder? What denominational affiliation? Opinions are given, but ., How true are the articles from which those opinions are concluded? Are the articles excerpts true to context?
6.Yes, the SDA believers of that region do acknowledge the errors of their members of that day. and repent for them and that regions not addressing the issues earlier.
But that is what Repentance is all about-------Daniel 9 gives an example of that action.
7.EGW had been dead for 24 years, and was not involved in any of Hitler's decisions or opinions. And attempting to associate any of her writings with Hitler's action is grasping at straws.
8. I read the entire article and it appears that the True SDA Church and the "Reformed SDA church" have been exchanged in that article. There is still a "Reformed SDA Church" which had its beginnings in Germany and whose teachings are a reflection of those of this article.
The time is fast approaching when "True believers" will again stand True to The Principles of GOD or with the enemy. No Compromise!!! A Daniel and his three companions or a Judas.
However, #6 Is appropriate even if late. even doing so for that "Splint group".[/QUOTE]
sincerly - The reformed SDA church came about at the beginning of WW1 when the church approved of SDA young men serving as medics. The reformed church wanted them to be straight CO's. Otherwise, their beliefs are exactly the same as the "true" church. Their GC office is located in New England.
Except for the difference already noted, they are exactly the same, although the reformed SDA church is and always has been, tiny.
I very much doubt that the German church that collaborated with the nazi's was the "reformed SDA church". If they even existed in Germany at the time, there was very few of them.
2. those SDA believers in that article were not following any orders from the Official SDA Church, but had followed their own inclinations
Yes of course.. they weren't 'real' SDA's. ;) That has to be the most overused and lame excuse I've seen on this website. Christians constantly pointing their fingers at others and saying they aren't "real" Christians or in this case real "SDA's". You see it all over the website. People trying to distance themselves from the atrocities that occur by people associated with their beliefs. But sorry.. they are who they are. You're stuck with them.
The time is fast approaching when "True believers"
"True Believers" are always the people who believe the way we do. But in reality, there are no "True believers". Only opinions.
wontgetfooledagain; Maybe if you awake on a wet pillow in the morning you will believe..
Peace, Sincerly. As long as sin is practiced, one will search for a means to validate the continuing therein. ANON
The greatest want of the world is the want of men--men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.---- ANON (Ellen G. White. 1882)
