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7 years ago  ::  Dec 06, 2007 - 1:55PM #1
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,280
I suspect this will make national news. I just heard that a parking deck in a mall in the city where I live in has collapsed. SouthPark, Charlotte, NC. One person is dead. This is adjacent from my favorite bookstore, Borders. I suspect it's one of the fairly new parking decks. ......................

This pulls up a frequent question, does everything happen for a reason? I think by this most people mean, there is meaning behind all events. Here's my take. Yes, there is a physical cause for all events, but there isn't meaning behind all events. In other words, the collapse was due to faulty construction (?), but there isn't a meaningful reason for the death of this particular person. It's just a matter of being at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Now, also in relation to this is the belief of fundamentalist Christians that God is in control of everything that happens. I was at the funeral of one of our contractors this summer. He died in a motorcycle accident. His wife made more sense than two pastors who spoke before her. Both of the pastors said, we don't know why God took him. I wanted to stand up and shout, GOD DIDN'T KILL HIM ! ....And then the wife  simply said, Doug was just playing too hard on Sunday.

I know this probably doesn't belong on Mysticism.................but do you believe that everything happens for a reason? Or sometimes, does sh_t just happen?
sdp
The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 07, 2007 - 11:32AM #2
strange_err
Posts: 20
I think that there is a reason why we live in a world where sometimes sh-t just happens.

~mark
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 07, 2007 - 1:20PM #3
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,280
[QUOTE=strange_err;122988]I think that there is a reason why we live in a world where sometimes sh-t just happens.

~mark[/QUOTE]

Yea.......this is really the problem Einstein had with quantum physics and his famous statement, "God does not play dice with the universe". Einstein was a determinist, didn't like the random nature of quantum physics.

It's since been proved almost beyond a shadow of a doubt. God does play dice with the universe. 

...........Oh, the parking deck collapse was due to a woman driving into a supporting column. She died. From eyewitness accounts, it is suspected she had a heart attack. They don't know yet if she died from the crash or a heart attack.  .............
sdp
The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 07, 2007 - 2:47PM #4
wonderment
Posts: 580

stardustpilgrim wrote:

I know this probably doesn't belong on Mysticism.................but do you believe that everything happens for a reason? Or sometimes, does sh_t just happen?
sdp



Hi sdp. It beats the sh-t out of me!

All I know is that there is an inexplicable, seamless intimacy to the Void. Beyond that, any and all attempts to identify any kind of "what" or "why" is useless - beyond futile. I know what I cannot know and as a result I find I'm very comfortable with no longer having to try. I do however find myself entertaining notions from time to time but I know that's all they will ever be.

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7 years ago  ::  Dec 07, 2007 - 5:13PM #5
Geocorona
Posts: 302

It's since been proved almost beyond a shadow of a doubt. God does play dice with the universe.



Actually, newer investigation into math and physics points toward a deterministic model of the universe.

"Randomness" and "uncertainty" factors continue to work great for mathematical simulations of reality, but a simulation doesn't define the thing it models. This was one of Heisenburg's many errors, one which continues to be repeated in popular commentary on physics.

Determinism doesn't mean anything happens for an intelligently ordained future purpose, however. It just means things happen in reaction to past events.

Sh*t happens because of previous sh*t, in other words.

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7 years ago  ::  Dec 07, 2007 - 8:24PM #6
strange_err
Posts: 20
[QUOTE=Geocorona;123843]
Sh*t happens because of previous sh*t, in other words.[/QUOTE]

Which begs the questions of what piece of sh*t took the first sh*t, and should we beat the sh*t out of them when we figure out who it was or is it better to forgive?

~mark
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2007 - 12:07AM #7
Mt_man
Posts: 80
That is a tough question.  I think if it is true, then reincarnation must be true, as kharma would be the only just explanation of starving ethiopian babies and with all suffering for that matter.
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2007 - 10:36AM #8
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,280
[QUOTE=Geocorona;123843]Actually, newer investigation into math and physics points toward a deterministic model of the universe.

"Randomness" and "uncertainty" factors continue to work great for mathematical simulations of reality, but a simulation doesn't define the thing it models. This was one of Heisenburg's many errors, one which continues to be repeated in popular commentary on physics.

Determinism doesn't mean anything happens for an intelligently ordained future purpose, however. It just means things happen in reaction to past events.

Sh*t happens because of previous sh*t, in other words.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for this Geocorona. This is news to me. But I don't read the latest research and it takes a while for new information to filter down to books and magazines. Could you give me a reference? Thanks. (And I was always pulling for Einstein anyway :-).
sdp
The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2007 - 4:14PM #9
Geocorona
Posts: 302
The breakthrough began with the discovery that seemingly "chaotic" systems actually followed mathematical formulas. Chaos turned out to be extremely complex order, but order nonetheless.

There is also some Nobel-prize-winning work in the field. The following Google search might get the investigation started:

http://www.google.com/search?q=chaos+de … erse+nobel
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2007 - 5:51PM #10
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,280
[QUOTE=Geocorona;125691]The breakthrough began with the discovery that seemingly "chaotic" systems actually followed mathematical formulas. Chaos turned out to be extremely complex order, but order nonetheless.

There is also some Nobel-prize-winning work in the field. The following Google search might get the investigation started:

http://www.google.com/search?q=chaos+de … erse+nobel[/QUOTE]

I agree here, but chaos isn't getting down to the quantum level. Nevertheless, I'll check it out.
sdp
The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
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