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7 years ago  ::  Dec 06, 2007 - 12:47PM #21
RaymondSigrist
Posts: 578
[QUOTE=eputkonen;120283]My point is that if you truly realize who/what you really are...the mind/ego is seen for the phantasm it is.  Once this happens, the mind/ego never really fools you again.  http://www.awaken2life.org[/QUOTE]

Here's something I am interested in Eric.  In the world of my experience the ego appears to always be able to come up with another trick.  One of its tricks is that it it tells me: it will never be able to fool me again.

Now what I am interested in is the following:  I am able to accept your report without question.  I am able to entertain that in the world of your experience, what you say is quite likely true.

But what I am most interested is whether or not you think the world of my experience can possibly be different from yours.  Are you able to imagine something different, and if not why not?.  Would it be that you really know the truth with absolute certainty?  Or would it be ego at work?   

I truly do not know the answers to these questions.  And I find no need to know.   I find mystical ecstasy works best when I assume I don't know.  But I am quite more interested in the world of your experience.

ciao,
raymond
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 06, 2007 - 12:50PM #22
wonderment
Posts: 580
This is so good because I can very much relate to and agree with everything you guys: Eric, Kip and Sdp are saying. There really is no problem. There never was. But the ego still wants to live, phantom though it is. So it's the ongoing "seeing through" that for me still takes practice. It's seeing when my mind is at work and consciously letting go. I find all it takes to do that is to be aware enough to ask: "Who's angry?", "Who's afraid?", "Who's threatened?", Who's happy?", "Who's sad?". . . Then the problem is always solved because it becomes so clear that there really is no problem. From the ground of being there is never a problem.

So that seeing and releasing is simply not seamless and automatic for me. My ego fights for life every day even though I know that, in every way, all is well. Have others managed to forgot and transcend the self entirely? Maybe so. Who’s to say?
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 06, 2007 - 1:15PM #23
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,318
[QUOTE=eputkonen;120283]My point is that if you truly realize who/what you really are...the mind/ego is seen for the phantasm it is.  Once this happens, the mind/ego never really fools you again.  When you start finding things problematic, being caught up with past or future, etc, etc...you recognize it is the mind/ego and it is laughed off.  And as little attention is paid to it antics, it quiets down of its own accord quickly.

Both of you talk and hint at a struggle with the ego.  Who is having the struggle - the mind (the ego) of course.  It is the mind having a problem with the mind.  This is a mentally made up trap the mind has fallen into.  The mind is trapped by the mind...and the mind is trying to fight the mind to get out. 

The phantasm of mind/ego can do nothing when it is recognized as a phantasm.

Namaste,

~ Eric Putkonen
http://www.awaken2life.org[/QUOTE]

You're equating mind with ego? Not so. Ego is (certain specific) contents of the mind. Mind functions quite nicely, without ego. The struggle is between two aspects of mind? Not so (not that two aspects of the mind can't struggle with one another). The struggle was described nicely by wonderment. The struggle is: will awareness seperate out so that it can see ego, or will ego totally absorb (take) all one's awareness.

Ego isn't a phantasm. It's a pattern of energy connected to the very structure of the brain. To really get rid of ego (or not have ego maintain control), the pathways of energy in the physical brain, via synaptic structure, have to actually be altered. THIS, IS THE VERY STRUGGLE wonderment DESCRIBES. You disolve these energy patterns by actually SEEING the activity of ego. I'm not saying you haven't gone through this process. But I'm saying it has to be gone through.

If these patterns aren't disolved, they perpetuate themselves (as well as being passed along to others, especially our children) through a sort of egoic DNA (the whole karma deal). I think in Hinduism they're call the three gunas. 

When they can nail you to a cross and you can forgive those driving in the nails, I'll believe you have conquered ego (not directed personally).

You are what you think, feel and do.  In other words, what you think, feel and do is an expression of your level of being.
sdp
The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory. Alfred Korzybski
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 06, 2007 - 1:24PM #24
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,318
[QUOTE=wonderment;120366]This is so good because I can very much relate to and agree with everything you guys: Eric, Kip and Sdp are saying. There really is no problem. There never was. But the ego still wants to live, phantom though it is. So it's the ongoing "seeing through" that for me still takes practice. It's seeing when my mind is at work and consciously letting go. I find all it takes to do that is to be aware enough to ask: "Who's angry?", "Who's afraid?", "Who's threatened?", Who's happy?", "Who's sad?". . . Then the problem is always solved because it becomes so clear that there really is no problem. From the ground of being there is never a problem.

So that seeing and releasing is simply not seamless and automatic for me. My ego fights for life every day even though I know that, in every way, all is well. Have others managed to forgot and transcend the self entirely? Maybe so. Who’s to say? [/QUOTE]

That's beautiful wonderment........ IMhO.......
sdp
The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory. Alfred Korzybski
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 06, 2007 - 2:12PM #25
eputkonen
Posts: 24
[QUOTE=RaymondSigrist;120355]But what I am most interested is whether or not you think the world of my experience can possibly be different from yours.  Are you able to imagine something different, and if not why not?.  Would it be that you really know the truth with absolute certainty?  Or would it be ego at work?[/QUOTE]

Experiences vary...but what I am pointing at (ultimately, at root) is beyond experience and the same.

Different experiences are due to different filters of mind and ego - let go of mind and ego and the same thing is seen.  There is only one (no other), it is the filters that are different.
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 06, 2007 - 7:40PM #26
strange_err
Posts: 20
[QUOTE=eputkonen;120283]The phantasm of mind/ego can do nothing when it is recognized as a phantasm.[/QUOTE]

That's an interesting idea, sort of like that one movie "A Brilliant Mind" where John Nash has really conceded to his innermost self that he is schizophrenic so he is able to develop enough skepticism about his experiences that he is no longer tricked by his hallucinations and delusions. That's kind of similar to my experience, except I don't seem to have gotten the same degree of release that you have yet.

That's neat that you've gotten so free on a permanent basis. I've noticed that for myself, the main way that my ego still fools me is by telling me that I can keeping coasting along on the spiritual experiences of yesterday or last week or whatever... then it just slides right in and starts doing its thing while I'm congratulating myself on how spiritual I've been. It's pretty ridiculous, and it's proven on several occasions that it seems to believe that it can kill me and live on. Totally nuts!

~mark
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 07, 2007 - 10:53AM #27
RaymondSigrist
Posts: 578
[QUOTE=eputkonen;120632]Experiences vary...but what I am pointing at (ultimately, at root) is beyond experience and the same.

Different experiences are due to different filters of mind and ego - let go of mind and ego and the same thing is seen.  There is only one (no other), it is the filters that are different.[/QUOTE]

Hi Eric

      I find this a very good topic because there is so much disagreement over it.  And for me the form and the manner in which the disagreement is expressed,  is just as interesting as the topic itself.  I will start a new thread with some quotations and other material that I think apply.  But before doing that I would like to correctly understand your position.

       Would your report to us be the following?:  You have no ego, and that state of affairs is permanent.  Or perhaps more precisely: You have no illusion of there being an ego, and that state of affairs is permanent.

love,
raymond
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 07, 2007 - 10:53AM #28
RaymondSigrist
Posts: 578
[QUOTE=eputkonen;120632]Experiences vary...but what I am pointing at (ultimately, at root) is beyond experience and the same.

Different experiences are due to different filters of mind and ego - let go of mind and ego and the same thing is seen.  There is only one (no other), it is the filters that are different.[/QUOTE]

Hi Eric

      I find this a very good topic because there is so much disagreement over it.  And for me the form and the manner in which the disagreement is expressed,  is just as interesting as the topic itself.  I will start a new thread with some quotations and other material that I think apply.  But before doing that I would like to correctly understand your position.

       Would your report to us be the following?:  You have no ego, and that state of affairs is permanent.  Or perhaps more precisely: You have no illusion of there being an ego, and that state of affairs is permanent.

love,
raymond
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 07, 2007 - 4:51PM #29
eputkonen
Posts: 24
[QUOTE=RaymondSigrist;122878]Would your report to us be the following?:  You have no ego, and that state of affairs is permanent.  Or perhaps more precisely: You have no illusion of there being an ego, and that state of affairs is permanent.[/QUOTE]

No, there is some ego.  If there was no ego (what-so-ever) you would not respond when someone calls out the name that you were given.  A little ego is helpful in just interacting with the world.  The key point is not being fooled by the ego by seeing it for what it is - an illusion or phantasm (even illusions may have a purpose although they are not technically real, per se).  As a side effect, the ego is diminished greatly and becomes a servant.

I find the ego/mind continues to diminish as understanding deepens.

Namaste,

~ Eric Putkonen
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7 years ago  ::  Dec 07, 2007 - 7:55PM #30
Flowupstream
Posts: 244
Ego remains unchanged, yet what my friend Arjuna Ardaugh calls "Translucent" in his book "Translucent Revolution". We all have glimpses of reality through gaps in ego. In being awake ego still functions as it always did but reality can be seen through ego without distortion. Ego is there (as much as illusion can be) but seen for what it is.

And Eric is absolutely correct. It is only ego which responds to verbal cues. As a servant, Ego is the vehicle through which reality interacts.

kip
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