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7 years ago  ::  Nov 05, 2007 - 4:13AM #41
GoodShepard
Posts: 13
wonderment: 

GS  'You seem to be talking about desiring to remain in Paradise after having entered it.'

W: "No, the desire is to recapture something falsely assumed lost. We are never out of paradise. We just think we are."

To follow through with that logic, if we are aways in Paradise, then we should feel and think that we are.  Why would we think we're not if we actually are?  If you're trying to say that our surrounding reality remains Paradise, but our spritual and mental state prevents us from seeing it, I agree.  In the Gospel of Thomas, Jesus tells his disciples: "The kingdom of the Father will not come through expectation.  The kingdom of the Father is spread out upon the earth and men do not see it."  That agrees perfectly with both you and i.  However, when I lost that state I didn't 'think' myself out of it; it just happened in a flash when I did the wrong thing.

Again, in the Gospel of Thomas, Jesus tells his disciples "Be passersby."  What he's saying is not to get involved with the man-made world.  So, perhaps I shouldn't worry about the welfare of those mired in it  - and just return to the Forest.
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 05, 2007 - 2:17PM #42
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,280
[QUOTE=GoodShepard;45444]SDP: "But I say sticking to your theory as to what happened (in losing Paradise) is why you haven't gotten back there."

I don't have a theory, just some probable reasons how and why it happened - besides which I"ve already told you that I've never tried to get back there, so your reasoning is flawed.  If I had a viable 'theory' I would have gone ahead and re-entered (assuming that God and the Universe were willing to have me).  However, made a vow to learn what was necessary to remain in that state, while in contact with the man-made world, precisely so I could communicate it to others without losing it myself.  Obviously, the only reason why you're arguing with me now is that I'm not currently in that state - and that's the whole problem with talking about something that you can't demonstrate.[/QUOTE]

I didn't forget that you said you hadn't tried to get back there. It was meant to have been taken into consideration (I was including this fact in my statement, analysis). Also included was the question, why haven't you gone back? No matter what you reply, you are operating by a "theory". ........ I'm not trying to argue with you. I know that's fruitless. I'm just trying to give a different perspective. ........... Did the hear the Zen story about the disciple who wanted to be enlightened? The Master asked, how badly? He then pushed his students head under water and held it there a good little while, and then let him up. The Master then told him, when you want enlightenment like you just now wanted to breathe, then maybe you'll find the way.........

Was there a different quality of energy present in Paradise? That's, the way back, and the way to stay there.
sdp
The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 05, 2007 - 2:26PM #43
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,280
[QUOTE=GoodShepard;45457]wonderment: 

GS  'You seem to be talking about desiring to remain in Paradise after having entered it.'

W: "No, the desire is to recapture something falsely assumed lost. We are never out of paradise. We just think we are."

To follow through with that logic, if we are aways in Paradise, then we should feel and think that we are.  Why would we think we're not if we actually are?  If you're trying to say that our surrounding reality remains Paradise, but our spritual and mental state prevents us from seeing it, I agree.  In the Gospel of Thomas, Jesus tells his disciples: "The kingdom of the Father will not come through expectation.  The kingdom of the Father is spread out upon the earth and men do not see it."  That agrees perfectly with both you and i.  However, when I lost that state I didn't 'think' myself out of it; it just happened in a flash when I did the wrong thing.

Again, in the Gospel of Thomas, Jesus tells his disciples "Be passersby."  What he's saying is not to get involved with the man-made world.  So, perhaps I shouldn't worry about the welfare of those mired in it  - and just return to the Forest.[/QUOTE]

This goes back to the problem of what I've called conceptual non-duality. wonderment is operating from a theory of non-duality. I know you (GS) know the difference. One is either there or not there. Sorry wonderment, I don't "buy" your statement. If we're not out of Paradise, there is absolutely no reason to do ANYTHING.  I'll just fluff my pillow and go back to sleep.
sdp
The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 05, 2007 - 3:50PM #44
wonderment
Posts: 580
[SIZE=4]Hi Sdp, Whether or not you buy what I
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 05, 2007 - 3:54PM #45
wonderment
Posts: 580
[SIZE=4](Geesh, now it
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 05, 2007 - 3:56PM #46
wonderment
Posts: 580
[QUOTE=wonderment;46471][SIZE=4](Geesh, now it[/QUOTE]
[SIZE=4](Geesh, now it
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 05, 2007 - 4:01PM #47
wonderment
Posts: 580
[SIZE=4](One last try.) Hi Sdp, Whether or not you buy what I
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 05, 2007 - 2:17PM #48
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,280
[QUOTE=GoodShepard;45444]SDP: "But I say sticking to your theory as to what happened (in losing Paradise) is why you haven't gotten back there."

I don't have a theory, just some probable reasons how and why it happened - besides which I"ve already told you that I've never tried to get back there, so your reasoning is flawed.  If I had a viable 'theory' I would have gone ahead and re-entered (assuming that God and the Universe were willing to have me).  However, made a vow to learn what was necessary to remain in that state, while in contact with the man-made world, precisely so I could communicate it to others without losing it myself.  Obviously, the only reason why you're arguing with me now is that I'm not currently in that state - and that's the whole problem with talking about something that you can't demonstrate.[/QUOTE]

I didn't forget that you said you hadn't tried to get back there. It was meant to have been taken into consideration (I was including this fact in my statement, analysis). Also included was the question, why haven't you gone back? No matter what you reply, you are operating by a "theory". ........ I'm not trying to argue with you. I know that's fruitless. I'm just trying to give a different perspective. ........... Did the hear the Zen story about the disciple who wanted to be enlightened? The Master asked, how badly? He then pushed his students head under water and held it there a good little while, and then let him up. The Master then told him, when you want enlightenment like you just now wanted to breathe, then maybe you'll find the way.........

Was there a different quality of energy present in Paradise? That's, the way back, and the way to stay there.
sdp
The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 05, 2007 - 2:26PM #49
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,280
[QUOTE=GoodShepard;45457]wonderment: 

GS  'You seem to be talking about desiring to remain in Paradise after having entered it.'

W: "No, the desire is to recapture something falsely assumed lost. We are never out of paradise. We just think we are."

To follow through with that logic, if we are aways in Paradise, then we should feel and think that we are.  Why would we think we're not if we actually are?  If you're trying to say that our surrounding reality remains Paradise, but our spritual and mental state prevents us from seeing it, I agree.  In the Gospel of Thomas, Jesus tells his disciples: "The kingdom of the Father will not come through expectation.  The kingdom of the Father is spread out upon the earth and men do not see it."  That agrees perfectly with both you and i.  However, when I lost that state I didn't 'think' myself out of it; it just happened in a flash when I did the wrong thing.

Again, in the Gospel of Thomas, Jesus tells his disciples "Be passersby."  What he's saying is not to get involved with the man-made world.  So, perhaps I shouldn't worry about the welfare of those mired in it  - and just return to the Forest.[/QUOTE]

This goes back to the problem of what I've called conceptual non-duality. wonderment is operating from a theory of non-duality. I know you (GS) know the difference. One is either there or not there. Sorry wonderment, I don't "buy" your statement. If we're not out of Paradise, there is absolutely no reason to do ANYTHING.  I'll just fluff my pillow and go back to sleep.
sdp
The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 05, 2007 - 3:50PM #50
wonderment
Posts: 580
[SIZE=4]Hi Sdp, Whether or not you buy what I
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