Why?

[Corrigan37]

Hi Carrie. :)

I just got home.

I'm sorry to hear about this. I hope everything is alright with her. Yes, we had our share of debates, but I always liked her.

Rob

Hi Rob :)

Have a good day Rob?

[wontgetfooledagain]

Hi Rob :)

Have a good day Rob?

Yes I did Carrie. Stephen's team lost.. but it was a good game.

So you got an email from Selah about this?

[Corrigan37]

Yes I did Carrie. Stephen's team lost.. but it was a good game.

So you got an email from Selah about this?

I'm sorry to hear his team lost Rob :(

Yes I recieved an email from Selah..she said she was going through trials in her life and bnet wasn't helping things.. She didn't want to judge people but love them..

[13]

That doesn't sound like Selah. :confused:

Are you referring to SpellingB? If so, SpellingB is a 'he'.

Rob

Yes, SpellingB (since that's who sacrificialgoddess replied to). I could have sworn he was a she... :rolleyes:

[sacrificialgoddess]

That doesn't sound like Selah. :confused:

Are you referring to SpellingB? If so, SpellingB is a 'he'.

Rob



Since I was talking to SpellingB, I think 13 is referring to SpellingB. :)

[wontgetfooledagain]

I'm sorry to hear his team lost Rob :(

Yes I recieved an email from Selah..she said she was going through trials in her life and bnet wasn't helping things.. She didn't want to judge people but love them..

I hope everything turns out alright for her and she returns soon.

Since I was talking to SpellingB, I think 13 is referring to SpellingB. :)

That's what I assumed..but since we've been talking about Selah here, and 13 was referring to a 'she'... I just wanted to clear that up. :)

Rob

[Corrigan37]

No it was people here.There aint ever a mature conversation on Bnet where any grow in their walk with GOd , just a bunch of false teachings and steriotypes.Maybe she is exerciseing spiritual discernment .She will be blessed if thats it.While we are all stunting our growth just by being a member of this brothel.I comend her and plan on doing the same soon!I cant think of one time all this time on Bnet where one has helped me learn in anyway that i can use in my life.Ialready know the basics and good saying and when I mention a deep study or stand against false teaching I'm either censored or not understood or insulted.God speaks of such and states what to do and what happens if you dont.Few here care about Gods word.This place IS a cult and nothing good ever comes from it.

Hebrews 12
14Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

your post isn't peaceful or holy Kru..

[jumbojava]

Selah left me a email saying she was leaving Bnet .. she left me a message for JJ so i'm believing it wasn't meant to be private knowledge.

Just thought i'd let you know
Thanks for passing that on, Corri.

I can understand her wanting to leave; heavens know i've felt like it plenty of times; and I'd hate to know I was part of it. :( We've went around quite a few times, but I always liked her depth of faith and honesty. One thing about bnet, you can indeed make lasting friendsips on these boards.

I am honored to cally Selah a friend.

And, Selah, I know you'e out there, feel free to email me anytime. There will always be a cuppajoe set out for you at my table anytime.

http://www.coffeeparties.com/biscotti_coffee.jpg


Drop me a line, Selah, if I dont first. ;):D

Hugs,

~jj

[Corrigan37]

This was what she said JJ .. for you

Tell JJ,that I want her to follow her dreams for me,,,
I want to love people not hurt them or judge them...ya know..


:) I copied and pasted

[Corrigan37]

I'm sure it wasn't because of you JJ ..she said due to trials in her life..

But you must've been important to her because your the only person she left a message for..

[jumbojava]

I'm sure it wasn't because of you JJ ..she said due to trials in her life..

But you must've been important to her because your the only person she left a message for..
Okay, now I'm gonna cry...:o

((((((((((((Selah)))))))))))))

Will be emailing your soon........

[Discerner]

WBFA wrote: Yes that's right, I do want substance. As for truth. If you have real evidence of your god then why don't you share it? You will be the first person in history to provide that kind of evidence. If you don't, then you obviously don't have 'THE' truth. But if you can prove it, then yes.. you do have the 'Truth'. So in your next post.. give me evidence for your God... and then I will accept YOUR truth as being THE truth.

Let's approach this problem from another direction. My proof of God is in the human body, the order of the celestial bodies, all of nature, including animals, foliage, oceans, etc. These things are already here, moot testimony to my God's existence. You claim there is no God, so prove it by providing a complete explanation of the origins of these things God created. And I don't want an explanation that it all came from a big 'bang' or 'it's evolution', for neither one of those arguments will fly. I need evidence of their origin.

Discerner

[OmarKhayyam]

I don't know and I submit you don't either. What you have done is assign truth to a set of myths that does explain what you DO NOT KNOW.

I will not go there. I will wait until there is clear and CONVINCING evidence that this god of yours exits.

Absent that - he doesn't.

[Discerner]

I don't know and I submit you don't either. What you have done is assign truth to a set of myths that does explain what you DO NOT KNOW.

I will not go there. I will wait until there is clear and CONVINCING evidence that this god of yours exits.

Absent that - he doesn't.

How could I be assigning 'truth' to a myth? Do you consider a human body and all of nature as a myth? That is my evidence...God created it all. Now you prove me wrong by providing unerring proof of the origin of humans and all of nature. You see, I know where I came from, but you don't. You only have a theory upon which you base your beliefs.

Discerner

[Namchuck]

The subject at hand is whether or not God is "hateful". None of your posts have done anything to show that any of God's acts were done out of hate. Yes God did punish the wicked and He did take the innocent with Him to heaven. Neither act was out of "hate"

You've got to be joking, Steve1939. The whole ambience of the Old Testament breathes of its god's hate. And that the Bible god "punish(ed) the wicked" and took "the innocent to heaven" is an assumptive belief for which you cannot advance the least evidence.

Nor have you explained how the Bible god's command to destroy the Amalekites - and their animals - could in anyway represent the justice and love of the supposed entity.

[OmarKhayyam]

"God created it all."

And how do you know that?

And even if we assume arguendo that some intelligence created the universe how do we know that intelligence is YOUR god?

[Namchuck]

How could I be assigning 'truth' to a myth? Do you consider a human body and all of nature as a myth? That is my evidence...God created it all. Now you prove me wrong by providing unerring proof of the origin of humans and all of nature. You see, I know where I came from, but you don't. You only have a theory upon which you base your beliefs.

Discerner

You forget again, Discerner, that we now have better and natural explanations for how nature and life evolved, explanations that rest upon a wealth of sound evidence. On the other hand, your myths are grounded in elaborate assumptions and not the least bit of evidence.

Is it not odd that you demand "unerring proof of the origins of humans and all of nature" but do not advance the least bit of evidence for your own discredited claims?

[wontgetfooledagain]

Let's approach this problem from another direction. My proof of God is in the human body, the order of the celestial bodies, all of nature, including animals, foliage, oceans, etc. These things are already here, moot testimony to my God's existence. You claim there is no God, so prove it by providing a complete explanation of the origins of these things God created. And I don't want an explanation that it all came from a big 'bang' or 'it's evolution', for neither one of those arguments will fly. I need evidence of their origin.

Discerner

First Discerner, your post was an argument for 'a' God... NOT your God. A big difference there that most believers never consider. As a believer you automatically assume that IF there is a God.. that your God is 'that' God. But there is no way you can give evidence for that.

And second, I NEVER claimed that there is no God. Please don't put words in my mouth. The only thing I am saying is that I don't believe in all of these man-made gods that humans have invented... including the Christian god. We have to remember that 'God' is a man-made concept. What else could it be of course? It doesn't mean there isn't one out there.. but just because we invent a concept it does not make it a reality.

Is there a God? Nobody knows... everybody is guessing... including you. But IF there is a God, there is no way you can give evidence that your version of God is 'that' god. And I'm not going to accept anyone else's assumption that their god is 'that' god without evidence to prove that. Why should I? You don't know anymore about it than I do. And all you are really doing is accepting the assumption of ancient men who had their own ideas of what a god is supposed to be, and who knew far less about the world and universe we live in than we do.

So.. . there are 2 questions that need to be answered....

1. Is there a god?

2. IF there is a god, what kind of God or gods (who says there only has to be one btw..) is it, and who (if anyone..) somehow is 'believing' in the correct version of 'that' god or gods. And it is highly unlikely that anyone is 'believing' in the 'real' God (if there is one..) because all of these gods come from the minds of men. Again.. where else could they come from?

The answer to question 1 is .. nobody knows. Everybody has opinions.. but nobody has the answer.

And since we are only speculating about the answer to #1, as of yet there is no answer for #2. And lets face it... answering question 2 is even more problematic (if that's even possitble...) than trying to answer #1. I mean after all, we don't know if there is a God.. and yet we have all kinds of people out there who have not only invented a God, but have defined their God and have even attached human emotions (negative ones at that..) to it. Which is why it is very obvious that ALL of these gods that we have seen in our history over the past few thousand years are created in the image of man and not the other way around. They are all flawed and ruled by human emotions. Geee.. I wonder why that is. ;)

Rob

[wontgetfooledagain]

That is my evidence...God created it all. Now you prove me wrong
ow could I be assigning 'truth' to a myth? Do you consider a human body and all of nature as a myth? That is my evidence...God created it all. Now you prove me wrong by providing unerring proof of the origin of humans and all of nature. You see, I know where I came from, but you don't. You only have a theory upon which you base your beliefs.


Which God? I assume you're talking about your God. Where is the evidence that your God exists, let alone created it all? You have to first give evidence that your God exists before you can even make that statement.

Just making a claim does not make it a reality. But if that's how it works. Ok then.. I declare that the my God (I haven't given it a name yet.. ..) created it all, and my evidence is the same as yours. And of course, I have just as much evidence for my version of God as you do. Now you prove me wrong by providing unerring proof of the origin of humans and all of nature came from your God and not mine. You see, I know where I came from, but you don't. You only have a theory upon which you base your beliefs. ;)

Rob

[shirleyj227]

Stop lieing!
I did like her. She was strong in what she believed. I like that in all people even when I do not agree with them.

Shirley

[OmarKhayyam]

Actually the entire universe we see around us is contained in a glass jar setting on a shelf in the 5th grade classroom of some vastly superior intelligence. The kids come by now and again to see stars born and die. Planets are dark specks of no great interest. What happens on the surface of planets is not only unrecorded but unimportant.

Rather like the mircobes that live in our ant farms.

Prove I am wrong.:)

[davelaw40]

You've got to be joking, Steve1939. The whole ambience of the Old Testament breathes of its god's hate. And that the Bible god "punish(ed) the wicked" and took "the innocent to heaven" is an assumptive belief for which you cannot advance the least evidence.

Nor have you explained how the Bible god's command to destroy the Amalekites - and their animals - could in anyway represent the justice and love of the supposed entity.

I did and you ignored it. God knew that Haman would later try to destroy the Jews.

[Steve1939]

You've got to be joking, Steve1939. The whole ambience of the Old Testament breathes of its god's hate.
I kid you not.

I have asked over and over again for a specific chapter and verse of where the God’s “hate” could be found and this request was met with stone cold dead silence.

If the OT, as you say, “breathes of its god's hate” why can’t anyone point out a specific reference?


And that the Bible god "punish(ed) the wicked" and took "the innocent to heaven" is an assumptive belief for which you cannot advance the least evidence.
God will punish the wicked: MT13:41, Jude 7, 2Thess 1:6-9. There are others but this should suffice.

God will take the innocent to heaven:

The one passage that seems to identify with this topic more than any other is 2 Samuel 12:21-23. The context of these verses is that King David committed adultery with Bathsheba, with a resulting pregnancy. The prophet Nathan was sent by the Lord to inform David that because of his sin, the Lord would take the child in death. David responded to this by grieving, mourning, and praying for the child. But, once the child was taken, David's mourning ended. David's servants were surprised to hear this. They said to King David, "What is this thing that you have done? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept; but when the child died, you arose and ate food." David's response was, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, ‘Who knows, the LORD may be gracious to me, that the child may live.’ But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me."

David's response can be seen as an argument that those who cannot believe are safe in the Lord. David said that he could go to the child, but that he could not bring the child back to him. Also, and just as important, David seemed to be comforted over this. In other words, David seemed to be saying that he would once again see the child (in heaven), though he could not bring him back.

Since all people are the “offspring of God” (Acts 17:29), they come into this world innocent of sin. “[F]or the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil” (Romans 9:11). Likewise, God declared that the King of Tyre, like everyone else, had come into the world guiltless, but had become sinful due to his own choices: “You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you” (Ezekiel 28:15). If, at conception, God “forms the spirit of man within him” (Zechariah 12:1), why would anyone wish to insist that man’s spirit is, nevertheless, corrupt?

So the verse above show that the WICKED are condemned to hell, while children do not do good or evil. There is no Biblical reference that anyone other than a wicked person goes to hell. And on that basis I think it is reasonable to conclude that a child who has not done good or evil is not condemned to hell.

Now before you chide me for using the Bible to prove my point, remember that you are using the Bible {your reference to the “Old Testament breathes of its god's hate”} to make your point.


Nor have you explained how the Bible god's command to destroy the Amalekites - and their animals - could in anyway represent the justice and love of the supposed entity.

Well I haven’t explained it since no one has referenced it until now.

The Amalekites attacked the Israelites without apparent provocation as they were travelling during the Exodus (Ex 17:8). "When you were weary and worn out, they met you on your journey and cut off all who were lagging behind" (Dt 25:17-18). They later attacked Israel during the time of the Judges (Jdg 3:13) and often raided the Israelites' land after they had planted crops, leaving them with nothing (Jdg 6:2-5). God punished the Amalekites by ordering Saul to destroy them (1 Sam 15:2-3) - over 300 years after they had first attacked Israel. During that time, the Amalekites had contact with the Israelites and would have heard about God. They could have repented and changed their ways, but they continued to raid and plunder other cities up to the time of Saul and David (1 Sam 30:1-3). The Amalekites that Saul and David warred against were clearly no better than their ancestors who had first waylaid Israel.

The judgment was in fitting punishment from God on an unrepentant nation. As noted above, they were given ample time to change their ways. While it was the descendents of the original attackers who were punished, they led the same evil lifestyle that their ancestors had (and possibly one that was worse - in dealing with evil nations in the OT, God often withheld punishment until their wickedness reached a particularly high level).

The primary reason was punishment for wrongdoing. The populations of the destroyed cities had long histories of grievous sins (Gen 15:16, Dt 25:17-19), which often included sacrificing their children to false gods (Dt 12:29-31). Their consciences should have told these people they were doing wrong. Had they listened and changed their ways, they would not have been destroyed. God has said that if any nation is about to be destroyed as punishment but repents, he will forgive them and not destroy them (Jer 18:7-8). In fact, this occurred in the city of Ninevah (Jonah 3:4-10).

Additionally, the destruction of wicked nations served as an instructive warning to contemporaries (Josh 2:1-11) and future generations (1 Cor 10:1-11).

So as I said before these judgments were not done out of any “hatred”, but were in fact an appropriate judgment for sinful acts.

I applaud you for being the first of the “God hates” proponents to step up and attempt to show where in the Biblical text it shows that God hates.

Unfortunately the text does not say what you thought it did. Read in context it shows that God passed judgment upon the Amalekites for their sinful behavior, God allowed 300 years to pass {300 years to clean up their act!!!} so it was clear that they had no intention of turning from there ways.

[Steve1939]

Actually Steve, I'm going to agree with JJ on this idea that your God hates. Any god that sets up a system where his own children could end up in some sort of hell (insert your version here..) is not loving at all. In fact, hell is the opposite of love.. and therefor it is 'hate'.

Yes, hell is not love. But then God is not merely love. Love is just one of God’s attributes.

God is also perfectly holy, perfectly just, perfectly righteous, and perfectly persistent just to name a few.

So if God is perfectly persistent with his perfect love and if one absolutely refuses to turn to him, God is then perfectly just in allowing this person to exercise his free will and be banished from heaven forever.

So, hell is not “hate” but a perfectly just sentence for one who rejects God’s love. Perfectly just in that one’s degree of punishment matches one’s deeds or lack thereof.



Hell could not exist if God did not want it to. So it all falls on God's shoulders here...
Yes, God did create hell. But the burden of who goes there falls on the individual’s shoulders who reject God’s love.


and hate could not exist if God did not want it to either. To say otherwise would be to admit that God did not create everything. I'm sure you won't admit to that.

Rob

God created us to love but we chose to do the opposite, which is hate. Hate exists because God has granted us free will. I can choose to love or hate it is my choice. If I could not choice there would be not hate and also no love.

Love is one’s attitude or feelings towards another. God commands us to love, only if I choose to disobey God will hate enter the picture. So no, God did not create hate, I did when I choose to disobey God
__________________________________________________ ______________________________________
Nobody talks so constantly about God as those who insist that there is no God. ~ Heywood Broun

[Steve1939]

Delete double post

[wontgetfooledagain]

Yes, hell is not love. But then God is not merely love. Love is just one of God’s attributes.

What other human emotions are you attaching to your God then?


So if God is perfectly persistent with his perfect love and if one absolutely refuses to turn to him,


*sigh* Steve we've been through this. I'm not refusing to turn to your God. Your God only exists in your mind.. unless you can provide evidence for your God that is.



So, hell is not “hate” but a perfectly just sentence for one who rejects God’s love. Perfectly just in that one’s degree of punishment matches one’s deeds or lack thereof.

Again.. Steve.. you didn't answer my question. Where is the 'justice' in being condemned to hell for being honest? How am I deserving of hell? What did I do (or anyone else.) that was so awful that I deserve eternal punishment? An infinite 'punishment' for a finite mistake.. (if you can call not 'believing' in the right God a mistake that is..) That's not punishment.. that is sick, twisted and sadistic... and yes.. hateful


I'm sorry.. but when a God leaves NO evidence for it's existence and then condemns people to hell for not 'believing' in him.. then this God is not only full of 'hate' .. but is also egotistical. Your God wants to be recognized as God.. before all else. Including how we treat each other. If your God was TRULY loving.. he would not care about that.. all he would care about is how we treat each other. Because that is all that matters. And of course.. you don't need to believe in a God to do that.. right? I'm sure you agree with that.

You never answered another one of my questions. Would you setup a system for YOUR kids where they would go to some sort of hell, be killed.. etc.. because they did not love you? Please say no. So if we lowly humans can love like that.. why can't your God?

And as you must be aware by now...I'm not rejecting this God's love. I'm only rejecting your assumption that it exists. You have provided me with ZERO evidence for your God. There might be a God (or gods..) but even if there is.. nobody knows what that God is REALLY like. All we have are concepts... and the Christian God is one of those concepts. What else could it be?

So I'm not rejecting your God's love at all. Do you reject the love that Zeus has for you.. or do you reject the assumption that he exists? Why don't you believe in all the other gods out there? There is just as much evidence for those as yours. None.

So .. apparently because your God has this need to be recoginzed (even though he hides..) then I will be damned for eternity for being honest.

Have you tried 'choosing' to believe in Zeus yet? Because again.. that is what is being asked of me.




Rob

[Namchuck]

I did and you ignored it. God knew that Haman would later try to destroy the Jews.

No, davelaw40, the second verse of 1Samuel 15 is quite specific about why ancient Israel was ordered to slaughter the Amalekites, something you chose to ignore.
And I suppose the command to kill all the animals was to prevent feral one's from later on harming the apple of the old tyrants eye?

[Namchuck]

I kid you not.

I have asked over and over again for a specific chapter and verse of where the God’s “hate” could be found and this request was met with stone cold dead silence.

If the OT, as you say, “breathes of its god's hate” why can’t anyone point out a specific reference?



God will punish the wicked: MT13:41, Jude 7, 2Thess 1:6-9. There are others but this should suffice.

God will take the innocent to heaven:

The one passage that seems to identify with this topic more than any other is 2 Samuel 12:21-23. The context of these verses is that King David committed adultery with Bathsheba, with a resulting pregnancy. The prophet Nathan was sent by the Lord to inform David that because of his sin, the Lord would take the child in death. David responded to this by grieving, mourning, and praying for the child. But, once the child was taken, David's mourning ended. David's servants were surprised to hear this. They said to King David, "What is this thing that you have done? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept; but when the child died, you arose and ate food." David's response was, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, ‘Who knows, the LORD may be gracious to me, that the child may live.’ But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me."

David's response can be seen as an argument that those who cannot believe are safe in the Lord. David said that he could go to the child, but that he could not bring the child back to him. Also, and just as important, David seemed to be comforted over this. In other words, David seemed to be saying that he would once again see the child (in heaven), though he could not bring him back.

Since all people are the “offspring of God” (Acts 17:29), they come into this world innocent of sin. “[F]or the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil” (Romans 9:11). Likewise, God declared that the King of Tyre, like everyone else, had come into the world guiltless, but had become sinful due to his own choices: “You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you” (Ezekiel 28:15). If, at conception, God “forms the spirit of man within him” (Zechariah 12:1), why would anyone wish to insist that man’s spirit is, nevertheless, corrupt?

So the verse above show that the WICKED are condemned to hell, while children do not do good or evil. There is no Biblical reference that anyone other than a wicked person goes to hell. And on that basis I think it is reasonable to conclude that a child who has not done good or evil is not condemned to hell.

Now before you chide me for using the Bible to prove my point, remember that you are using the Bible {your reference to the “Old Testament breathes of its god's hate”} to make your point.




Well I haven’t explained it since no one has referenced it until now.

The Amalekites attacked the Israelites without apparent provocation as they were travelling during the Exodus (Ex 17:8). "When you were weary and worn out, they met you on your journey and cut off all who were lagging behind" (Dt 25:17-18). They later attacked Israel during the time of the Judges (Jdg 3:13) and often raided the Israelites' land after they had planted crops, leaving them with nothing (Jdg 6:2-5). God punished the Amalekites by ordering Saul to destroy them (1 Sam 15:2-3) - over 300 years after they had first attacked Israel. During that time, the Amalekites had contact with the Israelites and would have heard about God. They could have repented and changed their ways, but they continued to raid and plunder other cities up to the time of Saul and David (1 Sam 30:1-3). The Amalekites that Saul and David warred against were clearly no better than their ancestors who had first waylaid Israel.

The judgment was in fitting punishment from God on an unrepentant nation. As noted above, they were given ample time to change their ways. While it was the descendents of the original attackers who were punished, they led the same evil lifestyle that their ancestors had (and possibly one that was worse - in dealing with evil nations in the OT, God often withheld punishment until their wickedness reached a particularly high level).

The primary reason was punishment for wrongdoing. The populations of the destroyed cities had long histories of grievous sins (Gen 15:16, Dt 25:17-19), which often included sacrificing their children to false gods (Dt 12:29-31). Their consciences should have told these people they were doing wrong. Had they listened and changed their ways, they would not have been destroyed. God has said that if any nation is about to be destroyed as punishment but repents, he will forgive them and not destroy them (Jer 18:7-8). In fact, this occurred in the city of Ninevah (Jonah 3:4-10).

Additionally, the destruction of wicked nations served as an instructive warning to contemporaries (Josh 2:1-11) and future generations (1 Cor 10:1-11).

So as I said before these judgments were not done out of any “hatred”, but were in fact an appropriate judgment for sinful acts.

I applaud you for being the first of the “God hates” proponents to step up and attempt to show where in the Biblical text it shows that God hates.

Unfortunately the text does not say what you thought it did. Read in context it shows that God passed judgment upon the Amalekites for their sinful behavior, God allowed 300 years to pass {300 years to clean up their act!!!} so it was clear that they had no intention of turning from there ways.

So, Steve1939, the "wicked" are simply anyone who doesn't believe in the God of the Bible?

[Namchuck]

Psalm 5:5; 11:5; Malachi 1:2; etc, etc.

The Bible god hates. He is also quarrelsome, violent, jealous, intolerant, and bellicose, and, fortunately, non-existent.

[Discerner]

[quote=wontgetfooledagain;478764]Which God? I assume you're talking about your God. Where is the evidence that your God exists, let alone created it all? You have to first give evidence that your God exists before you can even make that statement.

As you address it, 'a' God of some description made what we call the universe and this earth, and all that is in it, and then made man and animals to inhabit it. Because man has not become extinct, obviously there is some unknown supernatural force that maintains the stability and continuity of all the machinations that control the universe as well as this earth. It is a scientific proclamation that if the earth was one inch closer to the sun, that the earth would be inhabitable because of the heat. Someone has to control all of this, and I believe it is a celestial Being who resides somewhere in the universe. He is the One that I believe in and worship, and I call Him God because millions and millions of others do.

Thus, what I see everyday is evidence that it was designed by someone far more intelligent and scientifically advanced than man can conceive, and not that it all came about through a haphazard period of time that resulted in matter evolving into what we know today. If you can believe in that and not in 'a' God that could create all of these wonders, then you have your own religion, a belief based on assumptions and theories. Just look at the intricacies of all the different flower petals and then visualize how they evolved into such symmetrical shapes and vibrant hues of colors, and are able to reproduce, and tell me that there is no God, or Designer.

Just making a claim does not make it a reality. But if that's how it works. Ok then.. I declare that the my God (I haven't given it a name yet.. ..) created it all, and my evidence is the same as yours. And of course, I have just as much evidence for my version of God as you do. Now you prove me wrong by providing unerring proof of the origin of humans and all of nature came from your God and not mine. You see, I know where I came from, but you don't. You only have a theory upon which you base your beliefs. ;)

If your God created the same time mine did, I wonder why there are no duplications, hmmmm? When I held my newborn granddaughter, that was not a theory, it was real, and there is no one on earth that can replicate the natural process of a child from conception through birth, nor can they duplicate the DNA system that each one of us possesses. No, I cannot provide concrete evidence that God exists, but doing so would not make people believers. The story of the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt is a good example of that fallacy. In spite of all of the miracles they witnessed, they still left Him. Explain why.

God bless!
Discerner

[Discerner]

Psalm 5:5; 11:5; Malachi 1:2; etc, etc.

The Bible god hates. He is also quarrelsome, violent, jealous, intolerant, and bellicose, and, fortunately, non-existent.

Tell that to Him when He comes! But the nice thing about it all is that you can change and He will forget what you say and think about Him, for He loves you in spite of what you say.

Discerner

[Namchuck]

Tell that to Him when He comes! But the nice thing about it all is that you can change and He will forget what you say and think about Him, for He loves you in spite of what you say.

Discerner

You're sermonizing again, Discerner. I hear that kind of thing all the time, even from Muslim friends. The latter tell me that if I accept Allah I will spend eternity in paradise (and I have to say, their description of it is far more inviting and appealing than the Christian heaven!).

Where is the evidence of this "love" that you speak about?

I see enormous suffering, both human and animal. If God, the Creator, is omniscient, then he knew, at the time of creation, how the world would develop. He knew that he was creating a world with suffering. If God is omnipotent, he could have created things otherwise. Therefore, if God is omnipotent and omniscient, he is also nasty. Hence, there are no omnipotent and omniscient, supremely benevolent beings.

[wontgetfooledagain]

As you address it, 'a' God of some description made what we call the universe and this earth, and all that is in it, and then made man and animals to inhabit it. Because man has not become extinct, obviously there is some unknown supernatural force that maintains the stability and continuity of all the machinations that control the universe as well as this earth. It is a scientific proclamation that if the earth was one inch closer to the sun, that the earth would be inhabitable because of the heat. Someone has to control all of this, and I believe it is a celestial Being who resides somewhere in the universe.

That's all fine and dandy there Discerner... but none of that is evidence for YOUR God.



and I call Him God because millions and millions of others do.

I see... just because other people call him God.. so do you? Using your argument (popularity argument ..) considering the billions of Muslims who believe in their version of God then they must have the correct version also.

There are more people who DON'T call your God THE God than those that do. So I'm not sure you want to use popularity as a reason to believe that YOUR God is THE God.

And as I'm sure you are aware anyway... that is not evidence.. only opinions and 'beliefs'.




Thus, what I see everyday is evidence that it was designed by someone far more intelligent and scientifically advanced than man can conceive, and not that it all came about through a haphazard period of time that resulted in matter evolving into what we know today. If you can believe in that and not in 'a' God that could create all of these wonders, then you have your own religion, a belief based on assumptions and theories.

ummmm... Did you read my post? I NEVER said that a God does not exist.

I have not invented a 'religion'.. you have. I have no assumptions about a God at all.. you do. I have no theories about any of this God stuff.. they are all YOUR theories .. and you can't back up a single one of them with any evidence for YOUR God. But don't worry... nobody else can either .. so you're not alone with that. ;)



Just look at the intricacies of all the different flower petals and then visualize how they evolved into such symmetrical shapes and vibrant hues of colors, and are able to reproduce, and tell me that there is no God, or Designer.

Why do you keep telling me that I said there is no God? Why do you insist on putting words in my mouth?

But besides that...there is not one single shred of evidence in all of what you just said for YOUR God. Try again.

You are only 'believing' that your is 'the' God. But you can't back that up at all.



When I held my newborn granddaughter, that was not a theory, it was real, and there is no one on earth that can replicate the natural process of a child from conception through birth, nor can they duplicate the DNA system that each one of us possesses

Prove that YOUR God was responsible for all of that. I want hard evidence as to why YOUR God is THE God. None of what you are saying is evidence for YOUR God. You must first prove that your God exists.. before you can make the claim that your God is responsible for all of this.


. No, I cannot provide concrete evidence that God exists, but doing so would not make people believers.

I'm not asking for evidence for 'a' God.. I'm asking for evidence of YOUR God. Do you understand the difference yet?


Rob

[Namchuck]

Tell that to Him when He comes! But the nice thing about it all is that you can change and He will forget what you say and think about Him, for He loves you in spite of what you say.

Discerner

By the way, Discerner, you're not disputing that the bible god "hates", are you?

And Albert Schweitzer identified just how empty and vain the expectation of Christ's imminent arrival is.

And another 'by the way'. Life has been on earth around 3.8 billion years and man is, relatively speaking, a late comer on the life scene of the world. Whether man will survive or go extinct like 99% of the life that has ever inhabited the world remains to be seen.

And you've got a few things back to front with your 'fine-tuning' claims. It is not that the universe was carefully set up to produce just the conditions that would suit us. It is that we evolved in a solar system that already existed, and evolution moulded us so that we fitted the solar system very well. Evolution makes it entirely clear that if we are here, then 'here' has to be the kind of place where we can survive.

No supernatural agents required at all.

[wontgetfooledagain]

But the nice thing about it all is that you can change and He will forget what you say and think about Him, for He loves you in spite of what you say.



Change? Why should a non-Christian need to change? You're not yet another one of those Christians who feel that those who don't believe in YOUR version of God are somehow 'wicked' are you? :confused:

[davelaw40]

No, davelaw40, the second verse of 1Samuel 15 is quite specific about why ancient Israel was ordered to slaughter the Amalekites, something you chose to ignore.
And I suppose the command to kill all the animals was to prevent feral one's from later on harming the apple of the old tyrants eye?

No, to keep them from rebuilding. You've never been a leader if you think there can only be one set of orders or one motivation at any given time.

[jumbojava]

Change? Why should a non-Christian need to change? You're not yet another one of those Christians who feel that those who don't believe in YOUR version of God are somehow 'wicked' are you? :confused:
Well, there can be no 'good' reason for someone to choose to be a non-Christian.....

[wontgetfooledagain]

Well, there can be no 'good' reason for someone to choose to be a non-Christian.....

I knew if you saw that post you would comment on it JJ. And it didn't take long either. :D

[jumbojava]

I knew if you saw that post you would comment on it JJ. And it didn't take long either. :D
Was there any doubt? :cool::D;)

[wontgetfooledagain]

Was there any doubt?

No. :)

I've been on Bnet for almost a year now and I've got a pretty good idea of what the regulars around here believe. And you are not shy about your feelings. ;) I think you are one of the most direct and honest people around here. You don't hold back at all! :D Nor should you of course.

[jumbojava]

No. :)

I've been on Bnet for almost a year now and I've got a pretty good idea of what the regulars around here believe. And you are not shy about your feelings. ;) I think you are one of the most direct and honest people around here. You don't hold back at all! :D Nor should you of course.
Thanks!

You're not to shy yourself, ya know...:rolleyes:

Hate to do it, but I really need to hit the hay.

G'nite, Rob!

~jj

[wontgetfooledagain]

Thanks!

You're not to shy yourself, ya know...:rolleyes:

Hate to do it, but I really need to hit the hay.

G'nite, Rob!

~jj

I'm heading to bed myself. Goodnight JJ. :)

[Namchuck]

No, to keep them from rebuilding. You've never been a leader if you think there can only be one set of orders or one motivation at any given time.

Ah, so Bible-god had ulterior motives. Sly old tyrant.
Still can't figure out, though, why it was necessary to slaughter all the animals. And why not raise the Amalekite babies as Israelites?

[OmarKhayyam]

"No, I cannot provide concrete evidence that God exists, but doing so would not make people believers."
So you believe because doing so makes you feel good. How profound.

And how cowardly.

And still haven't shown why my glass jar cannot be.

You haven't shown anything except a blind unreasoned "faith" in ancient myths and legends of savagery and war.

Produce your god and I'll show you a hateful spiteful egotistic criminal who if deserves to be tried and convicted for crimes against humanity.

[Icelander]

No, to keep them from rebuilding. You've never been a leader if you think there can only be one set of orders or one motivation at any given time.

First, you're assuming the Amalekites couldn't just steal animals from the Israelites.

Next, you're assuming the Amalekites couldn't rebuild without animals.

Also, you're assuming that the Israelites couldn't simply take the animals back with them.

Finally, you're assuming that the Israeli destruction of the Amalekites wasn't complete. If it was, why kill the animals?

And you still haven't answered the question of why they had to kill the babies. Anyone who could order such a thing is no god I'd want to worship.

[jumbojava]

Tell that to Him when He comes! But the nice thing about it all is that you can change and He will forget what you say and think about Him, for He loves you in spite of what you say.
Using this logic says your god had pregant women, infants and children slaughtered for he loved them.....

If that is love, then I want nothing to do with your god. But, again, using this logic I go to hell/annhilated for god loves me.

That kind of love isnt love at all, and is incredibly toxic.

No thanks, I'll pass....

[Icelander]

If that is love, then I want nothing to do with your god. But, again, using this logic I go to hell/annhilated for god loves me.

I am of the opinion that if hell does exist, it is simply portrayed as eternal suffering by Christians because they can't possibly be wrong.

[wontgetfooledagain]

I am of the opinion that if hell does exist, it is simply portrayed as eternal suffering by Christians because they can't possibly be wrong.

I've said this before and I'll say it again.. The cognitive dissonance that it takes to reconcile a 'loving' God that sets up a system where his children will end up in an eternal hell (for nothing other than not being able to figure out HE is God no less..) is astounding. And must really hurt your brain as you try and reconcile that. Either that, or you just ignore it altogether I suppose. It's probably easier that way.

'Eternal hell' and 'loving God' are contradictions and can't describe the same 'being'.

Rob

[subtleguy01]

Icelander wrote: "I am of the opinion that if hell does exist, it is simply portrayed as eternal suffering by Christians because they can't possibly be wrong."

Jerry: You're quite right, Icelander. The cruel Christian God is only "loving and just" to those deluded people who think they're on his good side... ;)

[Discerner]

I am of the opinion that if hell does exist, it is simply portrayed as eternal suffering by Christians because they can't possibly be wrong.

Hell is a place that was used to burn refuse outside the city of Jerusalem, and reference is made to it in the Bible, for in those days people could understand and relate to that type of place. The Bible refers to 'hell' also in reference to the destruction of the wicked after the millennium. Many people relate hell as being an eternal suffering, which is not so. The Bible also referred to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah as being eternal or forever; however, no one is able to find even a spark in the location where the city once stood. The reference to eternal or forever means that its effect is 'eternal' or 'forever'.

In response to all of the derogatory remarks about God and His punishment of those who refuse, or have refused, to live according to His standards, I have a question. Do you think it is horrible that a governmental agency will sentence to death a mass murderer, or someone who has no regard for the law whatsoever and will rape, murder and torture others? How about Stalin or Hitler, or others of their ilk, as well as their associates? Do you think they should be allowed to roam around free and without punishment?

I know the next thing you will ask is...how does that pertain to women and children that were killed? So I will answer it ahead of time. Those tribes, or groups of people, that were killed were guilty of all kinds of crimes, worshipping idols and false gods, sacrificing their children to their gods, etc. By eliminating the entire group, the source of their heathenistic practice is also eliminated and their influence on other groups as well. The eradication of sin is the ultimate end result.

Discerner

[Icelander]

First, I'll turn off the bold in your post. It makes things hard to read.

In response to all of the derogatory remarks about God and His punishment of those who refuse, or have refused, to live according to His standards

I'm not refusing to live according to god's standards. I love and am faithful to my wife, I love my child. I work hard. I try to be kind to others. If it weren't for my lack of belief in god, I think I'd make a pretty good Christian. I simply do not believe in a god. Do you think this merits eternal punishment in a lake of fire?

I have a question. Do you think it is horrible that a governmental agency will sentence to death a mass murderer, or someone who has no regard for the law whatsoever and will rape, murder and torture others?

I oppose the death penalty in all cases.

Also, do you think that atheists rape and murder and torture others? I can state unequivocally this is untrue. Like I said before, I love my family, and I try to be kind to others. I am not an evil person.

How about Stalin or Hitler, or others of their ilk, as well as their associates? Do you think they should be allowed to roam around free and without punishment?

Of course not. But I'm not at all like them. Why should I, or my wife, or my little girl, be thrown into an eternal pit of fire?

I know the next thing you will ask is...how does that pertain to women and children that were killed? So I will answer it ahead of time. Those tribes, or groups of people, that were killed were guilty of all kinds of crimes, worshipping idols and false gods, sacrificing their children to their gods, etc. By eliminating the entire group, the source of their heathenistic practice is also eliminated and their influence on other groups as well. The eradication of sin is the ultimate end result.

So I guess you do believe that my little girl, should she not believe in god, deserves eternal torture.

Look into her eyes, and tell me that this is fair:

http://gallery.movetoiceland.com/d/3014-2/PA210029.JPG

Well, once my web host gets Apache working, anyway

[Discerner]

Icelander - I was not directing my remarks to you or any other person in particular, but to any person, Christian or otherwise, that violates the law. I am quite sure that you are a very fine person, and that is not the issue. You live according to the dictates of societal laws and regulations that govern the conduct of the people in the area where you live. Failure to do so will result in punishment of some kind or another, depending on the severity of the offense. While you don't believe in capital punishment, many others do who are not Christians, but that is another topic.

The point I am trying to make is that you live within the confines of the laws where you reside. Why do you? Because for two reasons...1) it's logical to comply with the law of the land in order for you and yur family to live peaceably and comfortably; and 2) refusal to do so puts you at odds with the law, and subjects you to some form of punishment. It's the same thing with God. He has certain laws and commandments that govern His world that He created, and when they are violated, there are consequences that ultimately could end in final destruction. I say 'could' because God is better than the local government, for He gives you a chance to change your life up until the time you die, whether that is a short period of time or 70 or more years. And He does this without imposing any pumishment on you whatsoever, regardless of the offense. He waits until you have died, and your relationship with Him at that time determines your fate. He gives you the freedom to choose, so whatever choice is made, it is yours, not His.

By the way, your daughter is absolutely a 'beauty'. I have a granddaughter that is 7 now, but it seems like yesterday when she looked like your daughter.

Discerner

[Icelander]

I am quite sure that you are a very fine person, and that is not the issue.

That is very much the issue. Why would a god punish someone eternally, with no chance for appeal, for the simple crime of not believing? It is as if you had men in gray uniforms coming to your house and arresting you for crimes against the Confederate States of America.

I say 'could' because God is better than the local government, for He gives you a chance to change your life up until the time you die, whether that is a short period of time or 70 or more years.

My local government gives me the right to appeal, the right to face my accuser, the right to hear the charges against me, the right to a lawyer, and judges me based on a jury of my peers. Your god gives me none of these things. It's a kangaroo court where god is judge, jury and executioner.

Not to mention that the punishment is nowhere near in line with the severity of the crime. It's like sentencing someone to death for a parking ticket.

By the way, your daughter is absolutely a 'beauty'. I have a granddaughter that is 7 now, but it seems like yesterday when she looked like your daughter.

And because she's unbaptized and is being raised by atheists, if we get into a car accident on the way home from day care she's going to roast in hell for eternity, screaming in agony while being torn limb from limb before my eyes.

How anyone can believe something like that is beyond me.

[Discerner]

[quote=Icelander;482126]That is very much the issue. Why would a god punish someone eternally, with no chance for appeal, for the simple crime of not believing? It is as if you had men in gray uniforms coming to your house and arresting you for crimes against the Confederate States of America.

Discerner: God does not punish anyone eternally. That is a misinterpretation and a misunderstanding of scriptural meaning. Suffice it to say that the Bible says that Sodom and Gomorrah would burn forever, but obviously it did not, and has not. It means it is gone...forever.

My local government gives me the right to appeal, the right to face my accuser, the right to hear the charges against me, the right to a lawyer, and judges me based on a jury of my peers. Your god gives me none of these things. It's a kangaroo court where god is judge, jury and executioner.

Discerner: YOu have the right to appeal a decision of your local government because you were charged as soon as you were discovered to be a suspect and then found guilty. With God, you're not charged until you have made your final selection before you die. The imposition of punishment, or none, is based on what choices you make, not what God makes for you. If you elect to disobey His laws, then you will face Him in the judgment, and every wrongdoing throughout your life will be brought against you. On the other hand, if you accept Christ, and opt to obey God's laws and commandments, ALL is forgiven, for Christ has taken on your sins, and you stand before God guiltless. It's your choice.

Not to mention that the punishment is nowhere near in line with the severity of the crime. It's like sentencing someone to death for a parking ticket.

Discerner: The 'severity of the crime' is in the flagrant disregard for God and disobedience of His laws and commandments. This issue can be discussed at length in order to understand the implications of the subject.

And because she's unbaptized and is being raised by atheists, if we get into a car accident on the way home from day care she's going to roast in hell for eternity, screaming in agony while being torn limb from limb before my eyes.

Discerner: Some people believe that an infant should be baptized. I happen to believe against that doctrine, for a baby or a young child is incapable of making such a decision at that young age. My belief is that the parents are responsible for the religious welfare of the child until the child reaches the age of understanding. Thus that makes her welfare and future in your hands.

Discerner

[wontgetfooledagain]

The Bible refers to 'hell' also in reference to the destruction of the wicked after the millennium.

So if you don't believe in your God you are automatically 'wicked'? Why?


In response to all of the derogatory remarks about God and His punishment of those who refuse, or have refused, to live according to His standards,

Refusing to live to HIS standards? What are you implying here? That only Christians are 'good'? Please...

If history has taught us anything, how good or bad people treat one another has very little to do with whether they 'believe' in your God or not. And that is certainly the case with my experience in life as well.

The vast majority of people will be going to hell for not 'believing' in your invisble and hiding God (which is only an honest conclusion based on ZERO evidence btw) and NOT for being 'wicked' or 'evil'.

THIS is justice?


I have a question. Do you think it is horrible that a governmental agency will sentence to death a mass murderer, or someone who has no regard for the law whatsoever and will rape, murder and torture others?

I oppose the Death Penalty.


How about Stalin or Hitler, or others of their ilk, as well as their associates? Do you think they should be allowed to roam around free and without punishment?

So this is just about YOU wanting 'justice' then? Are you lumping me (or other non-believers) in with Hitler by the way? Because apparently your God and you must think that. And why? Because someone could not figure out that HE was God (very egotistical of course...) And for that they are going to the same place as Hitler.



Again... THIS is justice? No.. that's sadistic.

Rob

[wontgetfooledagain]

ALL is forgiven, for Christ has taken on your sins, and you stand before God guiltless. It's your choice.

Complete nonsense of course. What you believe is based on whatever evidence you have before you. Apparently you have evidence for your God (even though you have not provided any yet...) and so you 'believe' in it. However, since I see zero evidence for your God I don't believe in it... unless you can provide evidence for it that is. And IF you do.. I PROMISE you I WILL 'believe' in your God.

But with zero evidence for your God, trying to 'choose' to believe in your God would be the same as me trying to 'choose' to believe in Zeus or The Easter Bunny. It would be a lie for me to 'choose' to believe in your God. And if your God really does exist.. then HE would know this.. right? And isn't lying a 'sin' according to your God?


Rob

[sacrificialgoddess]

So I guess you do believe that my little girl, should she not believe in god, deserves eternal torture.

Look into her eyes, and tell me that this is fair:

http://gallery.movetoiceland.com/d/3014-2/PA210029.JPG

Well, once my web host gets Apache working, anyway



That your baby girl? She is adorable! Give her a kiss from me. :D

[Corrigan37]

awwwww

She is adorable Icelander :)

[subtleguy01]

Corrigan, concerning Icelanders daughter, wrote: "She is adorable Icelander ."

Jerry: Indeed, Icelander's daughter is no less adorable than those Amalekite children were. Young innocents should always be protected by adults. Yet, the Christian God ordered the complete slaughter of those beautiful Amalekite children...

[Corrigan37]

Was that really necessary Jerry?

[subtleguy01]

Icelander wrote: "I'm not refusing to live according to god's standards. I love and am faithful to my wife, I love my child. I work hard. I try to be kind to others. If it weren't for my lack of belief in god, I think I'd make a pretty good Christian. I simply do not believe in a god. Do you think this merits eternal punishment in a lake of fire??

Jerry: As a former ardent EC, I used to believe that you are merely rebellious and defiantly self serving in denying so obvious a God. As such, you would be completely deserving of the Christian God's eternal deep fryer......

[subtleguy01]

Was what really necessary, Carrie?

[subtleguy01]

Discerner suggests: "I say 'could' because God is better than the local government, for He gives you a chance to change your life up until the time you die, whether that is a short period of time or 70 or more years. And He does this without imposing any pumishment on you whatsoever, regardless of the offense. "

Jerry: Indeed Discerner, the offense of being born an Amalekite innocent certainly wrecks havoc upon your delusional presentation of the Christian God.

[Icelander]

You have the right to appeal a decision of your local government because you were charged as soon as you were discovered to be a suspect and then found guilty. With God, you're not charged until you have made your final selection before you die.

There's still no counsel, no jury of peers, and no chance of appeal.

The imposition of punishment, or none, is based on what choices you make, not what God makes for you. If you elect to disobey His laws, then you will face Him in the judgment, and every wrongdoing throughout your life will be brought against you. On the other hand, if you accept Christ, and opt to obey God's laws and commandments, ALL is forgiven, for Christ has taken on your sins, and you stand before God guiltless. It's your choice.

What if I obey the laws that make sense, like loving my neighbor, giving to charity, being humble, but don't believe in god?

And I don't want anyone to take on my sins. Christ didn't do any of the things I've done, not that any of them are particularly evil. I refuse to let someone else take whatever punishment is coming to me. It just wouldn't be fair.

The 'severity of the crime' is in the flagrant disregard for God and disobedience of His laws and commandments. This issue can be discussed at length in order to understand the implications of the subject.

But I'm not in flagrantly disregarding god. I simply don't believe. You seem to think that my disbelief is based in some sort of rebellion, which is simply not the case. To get an understanding, think about any one of the ancient gods - Thor, Zeus, Baal, etc. What does it feel like not to believe in any of them? That feeling of unbelief is what I feel about your god. The presence of god might be very clear to you, but to me your god is as real as Jupiter or Poseidon.

As for the laws and commandments, I try hard to love my neighbor, but there's no way I'm going to beat my child, or kill witches, or not eat pork or shellfish, or not wear mixed cloth, or shave the head of a woman who comes into church with it uncovered. Those are ridiculous, and if I'm going to be destroyed for not obeying ridiculous laws, then so be it.

[subtleguy01]

The Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines delusional thusly: "1: the act of deluding : the state of being deluded 2 a: something that is falsely or delusively (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/delusively) believed or propagated b: a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary; also : the abnormal state marked by such beliefs.

The Dictionary defines delude thusly: 1: to mislead the mind or judgment of : deceive (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deceive), trick (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/trick) 2obsolete a: frustrate (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/frustrate), disappoint (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/disappoint) b: evade (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/evade), elude (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/elude)

Are supporters of the Christian God delusional? Are those who deny the Christian God delusional?

[Corrigan37]

As for the laws and commandments, I try hard to love my neighbor, but there's no way I'm going to beat my child, or kill witches, or not eat pork or shellfish, or not wear mixed cloth, or shave the head of a woman who comes into church with it uncovered. Those are ridiculous, and if I'm going to be destroyed for not obeying ridiculous laws, then so be it.

Icelander
I don't follow those laws either ..

[Icelander]

Was that really necessary Jerry?

I'd say it was.

It's easy to look at the Amalekites from our perspective in the distant future and say "there's a sinful, evil people who deserved to be utterly destroyed."

But when you realize that every Amalekite father felt the same love I feel for their Amalekite daughters, the whole concept of god ordering their destruction takes on a whole new meaning. God goes from defending his chosen people to ordering the murder of little girls like mine.

[Corrigan37]

Well the bible says not to judge before it's time..

So I don't ..

I'll leave the judging for the Lord ..

Sure there are many things christians find uncomfortable with the OT.. but it is as it is..

Dosen't make it untrue because you find it to be ugly does it?
Maybe that's the truth.. maybe the truth can be ugly sometimes.. and hurtful and painful to know see and hear..

I don't know how to answer that..
And i think it's wrong to make me feel as though i have to answer for it..

Carrie

[subtleguy01]

Carrie wrote to Icelander: "I don't follow those laws either .."

Jerry: Yet Carrie, Christians wholeheartedly love and worship a God who has historically ordered infanticide and genocide against the most helpless of our fellow humanity......

[Icelander]

And i think it's wrong to make me feel as though i have to answer for it.

You're absolutely right, and I'm sorry if I made you feel that way.

When I think about any god or any religion, all these questions start churning in my brain. They're more rhetorical than anything. And I was always taught that asking questions is how you learn things.

So I'm trying to understand what belief in god is, how it works, what it feels like, and how one can have belief in the same god that's in the Bible or the Koran or the Torah or any other holy book. And I'm asking questions for anyone to answer.

Maybe that's why believers think atheists are always angry: We ask questions trying to learn about something, which raises more questions, which we keep asking. Then the believer gets frustrated from having to answer seemingly obvious questions, and the non-believer gets frustrated by getting the same answer over and over again.

[subtleguy01]

Carrie wrote: "I don't know how to answer that.. And i think it's wrong to make me feel as though i have to answer for it.."

Jerry: As long as any Christian chooses to wholeheartedly love a God who has ordered infanticide and genocide against the most helpless of humanity, well, they will always have to answer for the criminal behavior of their God.....

[wontgetfooledagain]

Well the bible says not to judge before it's time..

So I don't ..

I'll leave the judging for the Lord ..

Sure there are many things christians find uncomfortable with the OT.. but it is as it is..

Dosen't make it untrue because you find it to be ugly does it?
Maybe that's the truth.. maybe the truth can be ugly sometimes.. and hurtful and painful to know see and hear..

I don't know how to answer that..
And i think it's wrong to make me feel as though i have to answer for it..

Carrie

Hello Carrie, :)

I have to commend you again. Unlike many other Christians, you do not try to sugar coat the Bible or God. You accept God for what God is... even if God may have done things that you might be uncomfortable with. Most Christians (that I know of anyway..) do not approach the Bible or your God that way. Your honesty is very refreshing.

Rob

[sacrificialgoddess]

Hello Carrie, :)

I have to commend you again. Unlike many other Christians, you do not try to sugar coat the Bible or God. You accept God for what God is... even if God may have done things that you are uncomfortable with. Most Christians (that I know of anyway..) do not approach the Bible or your God that way. Your honesty is very refreshing.

Rob



That's why we love her! :D

Well, one of the reasons, anyway.

[Icelander]

Jerry: Yet Carrie, Christians wholeheartedly love and worship a God who has historically ordered infanticide and genocide against the most helpless of our fellow humanity......

The scariest thing for me is to imagine what it must have been like. Wars back then weren't like the wars today. In order to kill someone, you had to use something like a spear, sword or dagger.

So can you imagine the terror on those Amalekite mother's faces when, after seeing their husbands slaughtered outside the city walls, the Israelite army stormed the gates, tearing their children from their arms, hacking them to pieces while they screamed, burning them alive inside their houses. Israelite soldiers had to have been covered with the blood of babies and children.

And they did it all while thinking their god ordered them to do it. Some of them had to have smiles on their faces while all of this was happening. And the ones who hesitated, who questioned whether it was necessary, were probably tortured and killed alongside the innocents.

This isn't to say that the Israelites are the only society guilty of such crimes, or that it didn't happen to them many times. But to think that they were the only ones who thought they were acting on behalf of their god, or that they were the only ones whose barbarism was justified, is just plain wrong.

[subtleguy01]

Rob,

I too find it refreshing when any Christian distances themselves from the recorded criminal behavior of their God and his followers. I see it as a first of many steps along the road to spiritually understanding themselves...

Hope springs eternal!

I hope you and your loved ones are well and prospering...

Jerry

[wontgetfooledagain]

That's why we love her! :D

Well, one of the reasons, anyway.

Yes.. there are many reasons.. She is a very nice person. :)

... and oh yeah... she has a wonderful smile too. ;)

[wontgetfooledagain]

Rob,

I too find it refreshing when some Christians distance themselves from the recorded criminal behavior of their God and his followers. I see it as a first of many steps along the road to spiritually understanding themselves...

Hope springs eternal!

Well.. it is a lot better than trying to justify some of the horrendous acts this God has committed.. .. that is what you usually see.



I hope you and your loved ones are well and prospering...

Jerry

All is well Jerry... Good to see you again.

I hope you and yours are doing well also.

Rob

[subtleguy01]

Icelander, concerning the historically heionous and barbaric behavior of God followers prior to and after the life and death of Jesus, wrote: "And they did it all while thinking their god ordered them to do it."

Jerry: Yet and to this very day, Christians continue to wholeheartedly love their God.....

[Corrigan37]

I don't have any great answers for you Icelander..
I don't know how to even approach this line of questioning..
I have never knowingly talked to an atheist about religion until I met Rob recently in March or somewhere around that time, yet i've been on bnet as a christian since 06..

:)

[Corrigan37]

Yea well I don't know how I feel right now..

This is a brutal place i'll tell you that much..

[sacrificialgoddess]

Yea well I don't know how I feel right now..

This is a brutal place i'll tell you that much..



The world, B'net, or this board? :confused:

[Discerner]

There's still no counsel, no jury of peers, and no chance of appeal.

What if I obey the laws that make sense, like loving my neighbor, giving to charity, being humble, but don't believe in god?

Discerner: Why can't I 'pick and choose' the laws of the land that I like and dislike? I am quiet and a good neighbor, having no quarrel with anyone, but I just don't believe in some of the laws in my hometown. Why can't I park a boat in my driveway? Why can't I water my yard whenever I want to? And so on.

And I don't want anyone to take on my sins. Christ didn't do any of the things I've done, not that any of them are particularly evil. I refuse to let someone else take whatever punishment is coming to me. It just wouldn't be fair.

Discerner: That's the wonderful part of accepting Christ...He does this out of love and the realization that you cannot atone for your sins...only He can.

But I'm not in flagrantly disregarding god. I simply don't believe. You seem to think that my disbelief is based in some sort of rebellion, which is simply not the case. To get an understanding, think about any one of the ancient gods - Thor, Zeus, Baal, etc. What does it feel like not to believe in any of them? That feeling of unbelief is what I feel about your god. The presence of god might be very clear to you, but to me your god is as real as Jupiter or Poseidon.

Discerner: No, I don't think your disbelief is based on a rebellion. In order for it to be a rebellion, you would have to believe in God, but you would disagree with His laws, rules, etc.

As for the laws and commandments, I try hard to love my neighbor, but there's no way I'm going to beat my child, or kill witches, or not eat pork or shellfish, or not wear mixed cloth, or shave the head of a woman who comes into church with it uncovered. Those are ridiculous, and if I'm going to be destroyed for not obeying ridiculous laws, then so be it.

Discerner: Those are ridiculous laws and are not applicable any longer. When Christ died, man was freed from the curse of the Mosaic law.

Discerner

[subtleguy01]

Icelander shares: "Maybe that's why believers think atheists are always angry: We ask questions trying to learn about something, which raises more questions, which we keep asking. Then the believer gets frustrated from having to answer seemingly obvious questions, and the non-believer gets frustrated by getting the same answer over and over again."

Jerry: It's simply a matter of faith, Ice. By faith, many Christians choose only to love the best of their God, while at the same time ignoring or just willingly turning a blind eye towards their Gods less humane and questionable history... ;)

Seriously Ice, if the people you constantly chill with have been taught to believe about their God the very same way you yourself have been taught to believe about God, then who do you believe and trust? Do you continue to blindly believe about God as your friends and teachers believe about God, or do you allow questions you may personally have to be entertained, regardless of the answer? In the process of receiving and acknowledging an answer, is the Christian willing to be ostracized and perhaps disenjoined by friends and colleagues for demonstrating the courage to question sacred beleifs? When warranted, are they willing to abandon religious beliefs they once wholeheartedly shared and promoted with very close friends, acquaintances and society as a whole?

Does peer pressure really end when one leaves high school? :)

[subtleguy01]

Carrie,

This may seem to be a brutal place, but when compared against the odious and heinous eternal Christian Hell, well, thankfully one can freely choose to leave from here.... ;)

[subtleguy01]

Discerner shares: "Those are ridiculous laws and are not applicable any longer. When Christ died, man was freed from the curse of the Mosaic law."

Jerry: When Christ died, mankind was allegedly placed into the eternally destructive curse of believing or not believing in Jesus Christ as Lord. Believe in Jesus, or go to Hell.

Seriously Discerner, how is this better than the Mosaic Law, especially when works (the Law) were always a central theme and integral necessity of Christ's message?

[Namchuck]

Discerner: Those are ridiculous laws and are not applicable any longer. When Christ died, man was freed from the curse of the Mosaic law.

Discerner

No one will argue with you about the cursed ridiculousness of the Mosaic Law, Discerner, but for the life of me, I cannot recall ever reading about God's everlasting torture in hell in Old Testament law.
Yet the gentle Lamb of God envisaged for the unbeliever an eternity of 'wailing and gnashing of teeth' in 'a furnace of fire', 'everlasting fire', 'fire (that) is not quenched', 'where the worm dieth not'.


The doctrine of everlasting torture has justified such inhumanity and caused terror in children, adults, the elderly and dying that it simply cannot be the work of a humane person.

[subtleguy01]

Namchuck shared: "but for the life of me, I cannot recall ever reading about God's everlasting torture in hell in Old Testament law."

Jerry: Hell, as many EC denominations promote it, would be unrecognizable to OT and and modern day Jews. It would also be unaccepted by most Catholic and Orthodox Christians, as well as by a few Protestant denominations.

Of course and for some EC's, such lack of unity about Hell within modern day Christianity merely proves that the end times are fast approaching.... :)

[Namchuck]

I still want some Bible and Hell believing Christian to explain to me how God, a hypothetically infinite being, can be in any way inconvenienced by the actions of a finite being? Why, as someone earlier suggested, would a supposedly all-loving and supreme being assign infinite consequences to the acts of finite beings?

[Namchuck]

Namchuck shared: "but for the life of me, I cannot recall ever reading about God's everlasting torture in hell in Old Testament law."

Jerry: Hell, as many EC denominations promote it, would be unrecognizable to OT and and modern day Jews. It would also be unaccepted by most Catholic and Orthodox Christians, as well as by a few Protestant denominations.

Of course and for some EC's, such lack of unity about Hell within modern day Christianity merely proves that the end times are fast approaching.... :)

Yes, subtleguy01, and some Christians are simply drooling over the prospect of unbelievers finally getting their due come-uppence, followed, of course, by being kebabed for eternity :)

[subtleguy01]

Namchuck wrote: "I still want some Bible and Hell believing Christian to explain to me how God, a hypothetically infinite being, can be in any way inconvenienced by the actions of a finite being? Why, as someone earlier suggested, would a supposedly all-loving and supreme being assign infinite consequences to the acts of finite beings?"

Jerry: Please let me know when you receive an explanation about such a curiously human sort of God....

[subtleguy01]

Namchuck suggests: "some Christians are simply drooling over the prospect of unbelievers finally getting their due come-uppence,..."

Jerry: This is very intriguing, Namchuck. I was an EC for more than a quarter century. Yet, I never wanted anyone to eternally fall victim to the wrath of the EC God. Instead, I truly wanted people to be at peace with the EC God. In retrospect, the two ideals are clearly at odds with one another. How can an infinate God be angry with his own creation?

Yet and as you share, I too encountered people within Christianity who gleefully looked forward to God avenging them against the enemies of their life.....

[jumbojava]

I know the next thing you will ask is...how does that pertain to women and children that were killed? So I will answer it ahead of time. Those tribes, or groups of people, that were killed were guilty of all kinds of crimes, worshipping idols and false gods, sacrificing their children to their gods, etc. By eliminating the entire group, the source of their heathenistic practice is also eliminated and their influence on other groups as well. The eradication of sin is the ultimate end result.
Ah, yes.

"Nits make lice."

Now, where have I heard that one before................?


The point I am trying to make is that you live within the confines of the laws where you reside. Why do you? Because for two reasons...1) it's logical to comply with the law of the land in order for you and yur family to live peaceably and comfortably; and 2) refusal to do so puts you at odds with the law, and subjects you to some form of punishment. It's the same thing with God. He has certain laws and commandments that govern His world that He created, and when they are violated, there are consequences that ultimately could end in final destruction. I say 'could' because God is better than the local government, for He gives you a chance to change your life up until the time you die, whether that is a short period of time or 70 or more years. And He does this without imposing any pumishment on you whatsoever, regardless of the offense. He waits until you have died, and your relationship with Him at that time determines your fate. He gives you the freedom to choose, so whatever choice is made, it is yours, not His.
There is no freedom of choice with your god. It is worship or die.

I dont believe in your god that kills babies and damns entire people and orders thier genocide.

And for that your god will have me annhilated.

So, it simply does not matter how kind and generous of a person you are. Failure to worship the biblegod and its' son will resulit in your destruction.

There is no love at all in this 'relationship' with your god.

None at all.


By the way, your daughter is absolutely a 'beauty'. I have a granddaughter that is 7 now, but it seems like yesterday when she looked like your daughter.
How many daughters did god have killed, I wonder...? How many more is he going to kill when he gert back?

Remember, nits make lice.


God does not punish anyone eternally. That is a misinterpretation and a misunderstanding of scriptural meaning. Suffice it to say that the Bible says that Sodom and Gomorrah would burn forever, but obviously it did not, and has not. It means it is gone...forever.
I noticed yoiu didnt deny the obvious: god does indeed destroy people for simply being non-Christian.

Why?

What can be so absolutely disgusting with non-Christains for your god to have absolutly no use for them so has them erradicated?


The 'severity of the crime' is in the flagrant disregard for God and disobedience of His laws and commandments. This issue can be discussed at length in order to understand the implications of the subject.
Just being a non-Christian is a flagrant crime to your god.


Some people believe that an infant should be baptized. I happen to believe against that doctrine, for a baby or a young child is incapable of making such a decision at that young age. My belief is that the parents are responsible for the religious welfare of the child until the child reaches the age of understanding. Thus that makes her welfare and future in your hands.
Until she's old enough to be told she must believe in the biblegod and its son JC or she will go to hell , about 7/8 yrs old. Hope to hell she's killed before then, Rob.

As for my 3 deseased brothers 2 killed at 8yrs; they are already in hell.

Remind me again why I would want to worship such a deity....???

[jumbojava]

Corrigan, concerning Icelanders daughter, wrote: "She is adorable Icelander ."

Jerry: Indeed, Icelander's daughter is no less adorable than those Amalekite children were. Young innocents should always be protected by adults. Yet, the Christian God ordered the complete slaughter of those beautiful Amalekite children...

Was that really necessary Jerry?
Yes, I think it was. It helps put things in perspective.

Ever wonder how those children were executed? Heads smashed, throats slit, run down, ripped from their mothers' arms and watched as the mother is killed with the bloody blade coming for thier throat next; pregnant mothers sliced open and the fetuses ripped out, dashed on the grounds....

Remember, each and every one of those childrens' death was ORDERD by god and thus deserved to be killed.

Ah, yes, god's commands in action is a beautiful thing to see, the screams of the children as they were killed a joyous sound; the flowing blood a wondrous sight to god.

it's all good, Carrie.

It's all good.

[Namchuck]

Namchuck suggests: "some Christians are simply drooling over the prospect of unbelievers finally getting their due come-uppence,..."

Jerry: This is very intriguing, Namchuck. I was an EC for more than a quarter century. Yet, I never wanted anyone to eternally fall victim to the wrath of the EC God. Instead, I truly wanted people to be at peace with the EC God. In retrospect, the two ideals are clearly at odds with one another. How can an infinate God be angry with his own creation?

Yet and as you share, I too encountered people within Christianity who gleefully looked forward to God avenging them against the enemies of their life.....

In respect to Christian lip-smacking in contemplation of their longed-for apocalypse, subtleguy01, I would recommend - if you haven't read it already - Chris Hedges book , 'American Fascists: The Christian Right And The War On America'.

Your question about how an infinite God could be angry with his own creation is a relevant one, especially considering - as Christians would have us believe - that God is also supposedly omniscient and omnipotent. As I've said before, an omniscient God would have known at the time of creation how the world would develop. This only compounds the relevance of your question. Why would an omnibenevolent and omniscient God create creatures when he already knew that he would have to condemn them to eternal punishment and torture?
That would make God truly malicious, and yet that is the God of the Bible and Koran.

I do not believe in such a nasty creature.

[Icelander]

Discerner: Those are ridiculous laws and are not applicable any longer. When Christ died, man was freed from the curse of the Mosaic law.

And what of my right to counsel, my right to hear the charges against me, my right to a trial by a jury of my peers, and a right to appeal? Why doesn't god grant anyone these rights?

(Though I think that, if the Bible were written today, it would include these notions. Since it was written during a time of kings and emperors, the god they made up looked like the kings and emperors.)

[OmarKhayyam]

"Those are ridiculous laws and are not applicable any longer"

What? Something in the bible is ridiculous? Ridiculous? The bible?
How can that be?:confused:

Oh wait! The Bible. Sorry. I didn't get that at 1st.

Of COURSE it is ridiculous. The whole damn thing is myth and legend and hate and war.

And ridiculous.

[Namchuck]

"Those are ridiculous laws and are not applicable any longer"

What? Something in the bible is ridiculous? Ridiculous? The bible?
How can that be?:confused:

Oh wait! The Bible. Sorry. I didn't get that at 1st.

Of COURSE it is ridiculous. The whole damn thing is myth and legend and hate and war.

And ridiculous.

Good one, Omarkhayyam!

[Corrigan37]

Rob,

I sent you an email ... :)

[wontgetfooledagain]

Rob,

I sent you an email ... :)

Hi Carrie, :)

You should probably send it to my private email address. I've been unable to open any of my Bent emails over the past couple weeks. Ever since I had to switch to an old computer here, things haven't been working the way they should. I'm hoping to have my newer computer fixed soon so that I can get back to normal over here. I'm using a rather archaic computer at the moment.. and it's SOOOO slow. :(

Anyway.. that's why I haven't been able to read or respond to any emails lately. Sorry about that.:(

Rob

[Corrigan37]

I see ..ok Rob ..
I sent it to your private email then :)

[Corrigan37]

I want you back to normal also Rob ..so hurry n get it fixed :)

j/k

[Corrigan37]

It feel so chilly outside, like winter is coming back :)
and
My toes are cold .. :(
and ..and ..
my nose is cold..

and.. and..

*chuckle* :p

[wontgetfooledagain]

I want you back to normal also Rob ..so hurry n get it fixed :)

j/k

Normal? What is normal anyway Carrie? ;)

[Corrigan37]

Normal? What is normal anyway Carrie? ;)

Normal.. Well i'm not sure.. If we put our 2 perfect minds together we might be able to figure it out :)

[Corrigan37]

well or at least your perfect mind :)

lol

[Discerner]

Ah, yes.

"Nits make lice."

Now, where have I heard that one before................?



There is no freedom of choice with your god. It is worship or die.

I dont believe in your god that kills babies and damns entire people and orders thier genocide.

And for that your god will have me annhilated.

So, it simply does not matter how kind and generous of a person you are. Failure to worship the biblegod and its' son will resulit in your destruction.

There is no love at all in this 'relationship' with your god.

None at all.



How many daughters did god have killed, I wonder...? How many more is he going to kill when he gert back?

Remember, nits make lice.



I noticed yoiu didnt deny the obvious: god does indeed destroy people for simply being non-Christian.

Why?

What can be so absolutely disgusting with non-Christains for your god to have absolutly no use for them so has them erradicated?



Just being a non-Christian is a flagrant crime to your god.



Until she's old enough to be told she must believe in the biblegod and its son JC or she will go to hell , about 7/8 yrs old. Hope to hell she's killed before then, Rob.

As for my 3 deseased brothers 2 killed at 8yrs; they are already in hell.

Remind me again why I would want to worship such a deity....???

Discerner: OK, I'll remind you again. JJ, you have a warped view of God and I can understand why you feel the way you do with that kind of mindset. If I looked at God from your viewpoint, I would agree. What you fail to understand is that God loves all of His created beings, and He does not condemn anyone for their beliefs. You condemn yourself if your mindset doesn't change before you die, for after death you cannot change anything...the die is set.

He wants ALL to come to Him, and those who elect not to do so seal their own fate. Only those who love and follow Him will be in heaven, for those who decided that heaven is not for them, then there is no room there.

As far as your brothers are concerned, they are not in hell or heaven. They are in their graves and their fate is not ours to judge, for God looks at the heart.

Discerner

[Namchuck]

Discerner: OK, I'll remind you again. JJ, you have a warped view of God and I can understand why you feel the way you do with that kind of mindset. If I looked at God from your viewpoint, I would agree. What you fail to understand is that God loves all of His created beings, and He does not condemn anyone for their beliefs. You condemn yourself if your mindset doesn't change before you die, for after death you cannot change anything...the die is set.

He wants ALL to come to Him, and those who elect not to do so seal their own fate. Only those who love and follow Him will be in heaven, for those who decided that heaven is not for them, then there is no room there.

As far as your brothers are concerned, they are not in hell or heaven. They are in their graves and their fate is not ours to judge, for God looks at the heart.

Discerner


"...God loves all of His created beings, and He does not condemn anyone for their beliefs."

That is what you believe, Discerner, but that belief is not scriptural, so I wonder where you got it from?

And you haven't answered the question as to why an omniscient God would create beings for eternal torture.

[wontgetfooledagain]

. .... and He does not condemn anyone for their beliefs.

Really????

hmmm.. not according to your next statement....


You condemn yourself if your mindset doesn't change before you die, for after death you cannot change anything...the die is set.

Now you have just contradicted yourself. JJ does not believe in your God.. and you are telling her if she does not change her 'beliefs' before she dies, she is condemned.



Yep.. your God does condemn people based on their beliefs. Your God setup the system... not us. Your God has decided who goes to Heaven or Hell.... and it is based on 'belief'. This 'condeming yourself' stuff is just passing the buck and nonsense of course.

And oh by the way Discerner.. you STILL haven't provided us with a single spec of evidence for YOUR God. Which is very odd considering your God is all about 'belief'.


Rob

[Namchuck]

Really????

hmmm.. not according to your next statement....



Now you have just contradicted yourself. JJ does not believe in your God.. and you are telling her if she does not change her 'beliefs' before she dies, she is condemned.

Yep.. your God does condemn people based on their beliefs.


Rob

Your are completely right, WGFA, unless I am misreading, say, Deuteronomy 13:6-10 where the mythical tribal god of Israel commands no pity in murdering someone who believes differently from the dominant paradigm.

Nor is he averse, according to the Bible, about sending bears to tear little children to shreds if they tease one of his obsequious human lackeys about his baldness.

[subtleguy01]

Discerner wrote to JJ: "OK, I'll remind you again. JJ, you have a warped view of God and I can understand why you feel the way you do with that kind of mindset. "

Jerry: To the contrary Discerner, you're the person with a "warped" viewpoint about your God. After all, you're the person wholeheartedly loving and worshipping a God who has historically ordered and committed infanticide and genocide. The mental gyrations you must perform to love and worship such a cruel and criminal deity is "warped" beyond belief. It's delusional on your part.

[SpellingB(AKA.KRU)]

"...God loves all of His created beings, and He does not condemn anyone for their beliefs."

That is what you believe, Discerner, but that belief is not scriptural, so I wonder where you got it from?

And you haven't answered the question as to why an omniscient God would create beings for eternal torture.

Well if you know so much about what is and isnt in the scripture you would know that isnt why we were created.We were created for his pleasure!It isn't his will that any perish but that all come onto repentance!That is scriptural!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SpellingB(AKA.KRU)]

Discerner I hear what you are saying , yet this might be a good time to use spiritual Discernment from others who hear not the truth within the words!!!!!!!!!!!!!!KRU

[subtleguy01]

SpellingB shares: "Well if you know so much about what is and isnt in the scripture you would know that isnt why we were created.We were created for his pleasure!"

Jerry: Indeed, sadism, infanticide and genocide being just some of your cruel and criminal God's "pleasures"... ;)

[jumbojava]

Well if you know so much about what is and isnt in the scripture you would know that isnt why we were created.
Itr's simple: I dont believe anything in the bible.


We were created for his pleasure!It isn't his will that any perish but that all come onto repentance!That is scriptural!!!!!!!!!!!!
Indeed.

Your god seems to only want unquestioning worshipers. All others he has put down.

Just like dogs or cattle.

We arent your god's kids; he had only one 'real' kid; himself in a human suit.

We are his playthings. And if we dont dance correctly and do the right tricks we are destroyed as undesirables.


Discerner I hear what you are saying , yet this might be a good time to use spiritual Discernment from others who hear not the truth within the words!!!!!!!!!!!!!!KRU
By all means, stay away from the nasty, hellbound, devil decieved/led non-Christians. All we'll do is drag you to hell with us. You should never get too chumy with us.

And that is scriptural, btw.

[jumbojava]

SpellingB shares: "Well if you know so much about what is and isnt in the scripture you would know that isnt why we were created.We were created for his pleasure!"

Jerry: Indeed, sadism, infanticide and genocide being just some of your cruel and criminal God's "pleasures"... ;)
indeed.

And still my querry is unanswered: Why does the biblegod hate non-Christians so much?

[subtleguy01]

JJ,

To answer your question from Post #1: Biblegod would be terribly disrespectful towards his slavish followers if he equally loved believers and unbelievers.

It's all about image, far as Biblegod is concerned. Biblegod is a very needy deity. As such, Biblegod is always pandering, being egotistically compelled to please his loyal followers. By ultimately sending multitudes of unbelievers to Hell, he is showing believers just how much more special they are to him than unbelievers.

After all, why would any believer love and worship a deity who grants equal rights and privileges to unbelievers? Seriously, what would be the point in becoming and remaining a Biblegod believer?

[Namchuck]

Well if you know so much about what is and isnt in the scripture you would know that isnt why we were created.We were created for his pleasure!It isn't his will that any perish but that all come onto repentance!That is scriptural!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, SpellingB, but that hardly answers the question now, does it? If God is omniscient, he already knew before the creation just who would and wouldn't repent.
No sign of any omnibenevolent God in this.

In fact, there is no sign of any god at all.

[Namchuck]

This pleasure seeking god of the Bible is so reminiscent of your typical oriental despot, only bigger and invisible.

[OmarKhayyam]

". . .yet this might be a good time to use spiritual Discernment from others who hear not the truth within the words"

And what might "spiritual Discernment" be and how does it differ from everyday discernment?:confused:

[subtleguy01]

Namchuck wrote to SpellingB: "This pleasure seeking god of the Bible is so reminiscent of your typical oriental despot, only bigger and invisible."

Jerry: Why discredit only the pleasure seeking despots? The pleasure seeking God of the Bible behaves identically in manner to the way his followers have always behaved.... ;)

[Discerner]

1) "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

2) "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." John 3:17

3) "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

4) "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." John 14:1-3

5) "Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

6) "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

Finally, 7) "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Genesis 1:1. This gves God the right to set the rules.

Discerner

[OmarKhayyam]

In his fantasy world maybe. Those of us who live in the real world have a different take.

[Namchuck]

1) "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

2) "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." John 3:17

3) "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

4) "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." John 14:1-3

5) "Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

6) "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

Finally, 7) "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Genesis 1:1. This gves God the right to set the rules.

Discerner

For each one of the high-sounding citations you give in your post, Discerner, one could give ten which identify the Bible god's punitive vindictiveness. I won't, though, for I am aware of the believers propensity to simply ignore those verses that show the nasty and malevolent nature of their god.

The above mentioned propensity is identical to the believers reception of any explanation of the world that differs from their biblical perspective. If one's experience or commonsense or intuition or logic contradicts the creed, then the fault lies, not with the privileged beliefs, but with experience, commonsense, intuition, and logic.
The believers explanation of the world must always remain subservient to the elaborate assumptions of the world view, assumptions that he adamantly holds up as immune from criticism, revision, or rejection.

It is interesting, in light of the baroque assumptions of the biblical world view, that god has never proven himself a viable cog, nut, or bolt in any theory of how the world works or is.

[Steve1939]

Last Monday night, in mid-post, my computer went blank and has since been declared dead. With no computer or internet access for the last few days has enabled me to look at the Scriptures and realize the God does indeed hate and abhors the sin and the sinner as these verses show:

Psalm 5:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%205:5&version=31)

Psalm 11:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%2011:5;&version=31;)

Lev. 20:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Lev.%2020:23&version=31)

Prov. 6:16-19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Prov.%206:16-19&version=31)

Hosea 9:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hosea%209:15;&version=31;)


So God hates (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hate) and abhors (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Abhor) the sin and the sinner

However this must be tempered by two facts as well:

God hates the sinner because he is a sinner. Because he transgresses or violates God’s law. It is rebellion in the heart.

The Law is a reflection of God's character. To sin means to challenge His character and authority.

And a law without consequences is only an empty slogan.

So, God’s hate is not based on a whim nor is it capricious.

Furthermore, even though God has this intense and extreme dislike and disapproval for the sinner He shows His benevolence for sinners in That while we were yet sinners, Jesus died for us (Rom. 5:6) (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom.%205:6-8;&version=31;) And He became our sin offering for us (2Cor 5:21) (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Cor.%205:21;&version=31;)


So it is not simply that God hates unbelievers and let’s cast them into eternal damnation. Far from it.

No doubt God is perfectly displeased with the sinner. The sinner hates God, disobeys God, is ungrateful to God for all His favors. God hates them for the actions that they take, for their sinful acts and yet He still provides the way for them to avoid the consequences of their actions. He does that by taking on the punishment that they deserve.


God both loves and hates. His nature is love (1 John 4:8), but He is also righteous (Psalm 7:9) and holy (Isaiah 6:3). The very fact that He does not incinerate all of humanity for its sin against Him is due to his loving kindness. God doesn't owe anyone anything.

We are sinners and as such, we have offended Him because we have broken His laws -- and His laws are a reflection of His character. But, God in His gre